(THREAD 2) To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other?

[Poudretteite]

Not OP just created another thread as the first one was full

Is there a reason for referring to Palestinians as 'Arabs?'

@Takoneko Why would the claims of the Jews who had actually always lived there be historic any more than those of the Arabs? And why would the fact their claim was historic make it, I don't know, illegitimate? Wasn't that the same basis as the Arab claim to it?

And, hang on a minute, we've been told they objected to it even pre-WW2. I'm sure someone mentioned there were two state proposals in the 1930's. So the explanation that they didn't want all those post-WW2 refugees Europe wanted to dump doesn't add up.

And you're really saying this attitude had nothing at all to do with the fact that the Jews had been dhimmis for centuries under Islamic rule? I mean, were there big apologies about that? Books written about why that had happened and how to make sure it could never happen again? And wouldn't you think that giving them their own state would be the most obvious way to make up for it? I'm starting to suspect that nothing like that happened and possibly still hasn't. Am I right?

On the previous thread, someone posted that those just killed in Israel were "on illegally occupied land" and that they had chosen to be there. The implication being that they were to some extent culpable for their own deaths, rapes, kidnaps.

Many of the people who were killed were young, children even, and were simply living in the country they were born in.

”the Arabs”? The British controlled Palestine then as a League of Nations mandate. There was no “Arab” decision made about visas

I’m with @lemonyticket on this. The 1939 decision to limit migration was a response to the Arab Uprising of 1936-39 and escalating violence in the Mandate.

In the white paper the UK government said that they considered that five more years of Jewish immigration would fulfil their obligations as far as “creating a Jewish homeland” was concerned. That prompted Jewish paramilitary groups to begin the Jewish Insurgency as they felt Britain was reneging on the Balfour declaration and their responsibilities under the mandate.

It was not all sunshine and roses before 1948. The international community should have been expecting violence in 1948 and done more to mitigate it.

In July 2009, Khaled Mashal, Hamas's political bureau chief, stated Hamas's willingness to cooperate with a resolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict, which included a Palestinian state based on 1967 borders, provided that Palestinian refugees be given the right to return to Israel and that East Jerusalem be recognized as the new state's capital

Right of return is completely off the table - so citing this as a negotiation is pointless. Right of return is defacto erasing the state of Israel isn't it?

Do we have a Ukrainian / Russian thread?

Do we have a Ukrainian / Russian thread?

There's a long-running series of threads in Chat that were started when the Russian invasion began.

@ketchup07070

Is there a reason for referring to Palestinians as 'Arabs?'

No reason not to? I am an Arab, it's not an insult. Where I have used it, it's because it's a better descriptor (ie: might be talking about more than local folks)

@mrsmara Kindly point out where I say 'Hamas is justified in wanting to destroy Israel and the Jews?

You said it wasn't any surprise in response to Hamas saying they will not accept the existence of Israel at all. So what is Israel supposed to do?

I’m not saying I agree with their arguments. I think I’ve made it clear that I think that the international community should have stepped in to enforce the partition plan whether the Arab Palestinians liked it or not. It was a fair balance between the competing claims and I support Israel’s right to exist.

And yes, I’m aware that were issues before World War Two. I believe I was the one who pointed out that the British limiting of visas was a response to the 1936-39 Arab Uprising. Jewish people were moving out of Europe in the 1930s after the Nazis took power. It didn’t begin in 1945. The Arab Uprising was triggered by the increased Jewish migration after 1933. It’s worth noting that Britain was only willing to waive visa requirements for unaccompanied children on their own soil in 1938.

Are there any updates on the Israeli hostages?

@Time4TERF I'm sorry. I heard a little while ago that Hamas said 4 have been killed in the bombing of Gaza.

Here is why right of return is a ridiculous proposal:

The entire point of Israel is that they have their own space. Not to be twats about it, but because they literally spent thousands of years as Dhimmi and they want a space to live as they choose, not under Islamic rule. That's the entire point.

There was just under a million Palestinians in 1947 in what is now Israel, and that is now almost twice that - making up 20% ish of the population.

There are now something like 7 million (maybe 8 million) Palestinian refugees. Obviously not from 1948 (there was only 700k then and most if not all are dead), but this is from other things - various wars, strife, or they are descendants. Their birth rate is very high.

So if these 7 / 8 million Arabs were given right or return to Israel and they all came back, then overnight, there would be a Muslim majority.

You saw what happened over in Gaza when there was a democratic election - they voted in Hamas - who wanted to kill all Jews and rejected democracy entirely.

So there's no way any reasonable person could ask for right of return for all these Arabs who's parents or grandparents were once living in Israel.

It would be suicide for Israel and most of the Jews in it.

So anyone suggesting that is not a serious person.

Agreed. Right to return is not realistic now. Too much water under the bridge and would only lead to further violence. Jewish settlers will need to be relocated out of the West Bank to Israel proper in any peace deal and so right to return on both sides will need to be waived for peace to work.

Yes @Takoneko

It would be a completely different story if the people of Gaza had elected a more moderate government with much more liberal / western ideas so they could live side by side with shared values - but as is - they need different places to live because they have completely different ideas on how to live.

What would be very nice, is if Arabs who wanted to choose to come and live in Israel under a moderate / Western style way of life were given the right to do that. Eg: right of abode - similar to what we get in British overseas territories.

However, I feel this might be a fantasy of mine. I think one of the things groups like Hamas or countries like Iran or Syria fear most is that some Muslims might see the way of life under a liberal democracy and decide that sounds better!

I don’t understand all of it either, but what is clear to me is that terrorism is never acceptable and must always be condemned. There is no justification for the murder, rape and kidnapping of women and children and the acts committed by Hamas are beyond abhorrent.

I was also upset to have a man walk past me in London this evening wearing a Palestinian flag as a cape, as if he was proud of the attack. It made me feel ill. I have also hears from Jewish colleagues today that shops in their North London community have had windows smashed by those ‘celebrating’ the acts of Hamas. This is completely unacceptable.

@WarmWinterSun

I was also upset to have a man walk past me in London this evening wearing a Palestinian flag as a cape, as if he was proud of the attack. It made me feel ill

Oh that would have disgusted me! How completely insensitive. I am a leftie, but I despair at how ignorant the British left are. Their hatred for Israel is so consuming that they can't even stand up against the worst form of terrorism imaginable. I think in the future they will be bloody ashamed.

A few of the left wing people I chat to on Twitter were completely unable to stop "both sides" or Whataboutery" or even stopping to say Israel brought it on themselves. It's just gross.

I have also hears from Jewish colleagues today that shops in their North London community have had windows smashed by those ‘celebrating’ the acts of Hamas. This is completely unacceptable

This is devastating :(

I have also hears from Jewish colleagues today that shops in their North London community have had windows smashed by those ‘celebrating’ the acts of Hamas.

Kristallnacht

He was wearing a Palestinian flag. Did he tell you he supports Hamas or did you just jump to the hysterical assumption that Palestine = Hamas?

I put two and two together with that one

@Sippingmytea

He was wearing a Palestinian flag. Did he tell you he supports Hamas or did you just jump to the hysterical assumption that Palestine = Hamas?

Oh seriously get in the bin.

Why?

If someone wore a Russian flag as a cape after Russia's invasion, would it be hysterical to believe it was a gesture of support, as you can't say that Putin=Russia?

Your post is the stupidest thing I've read throughout this whole event...

But by the same logic that suggests that all British people are Tories and we support everything our government does?

People are not their governments. People can also support freedom for Palestinians and equally be disgusted by the actions of Hamas.

It is a real shame that people on this thread are so closed minded.

I used to live in Israel. Finally heard from my friend who had moved out of Tel Aviv to Ashdod that she is OK. A few days ago she posted a photo of the view from her balcony over the sea, and said she loved living there as it was so peaceful. 🙁