Page 8 | (THREAD 2) To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other?

Poudretteite · 2023-10-09T18:51:30+00:00

Not OP just created another thread as the first one was full

cakeorwine · 13/10/2023 19:03

What is the end game?
We know what happened when we invaded Iraq.
Afghanistan

And there will be a lot of children who will be radicalised.

How does this end?

ToWhitToWhoo · 13/10/2023 19:06

Please, if you can, support Middle Eastern peace and coexistence movements and integrated bilingual schooling.

It may already be too late.

But if we don't strengthen such movements now,. it will certainly be too late.

www.allmep.org

www.onevoicemovement.org

www.oasisofpeace.org.uk

www,handinhandk12.org

Home - Alliance for Middle East Peace

October 2023 – Statements from our members Support ALLMEP ALLMEP is the largest and fastest growing network of Palestinian and Israeli peacebuilders. As the collective voice of our member organizations, […]

http://www.allmep.org

LemonyTicket · 13/10/2023 19:09

piddocktrumperiness · 13/10/2023 19:01

We end up breeding a generation of very pissed off and traumatised kids.

Why can't the International community put pressure on Netanyahu to withdraw from the West Bank- give the Palestinians in the region the right to self determination, be it in a separate state, or under one flag, but treated equally?

Most want peace

Also, the reporting in the media is a little concerning. I also find the flying of flags as a spark of tension possibly, particularly if governments are picking one side against the other as it invalidates the citizens who are under the cruel rule of Hamas, and those who are struggling with settlers in the West Bank and OPTs.

Banning protests in support of Palestinians will only fuel anger amongst factions in the Middle East who already believe the media is biased against them, further fuelling tension.

No flying flags, or fly a white flag as a PP suggested. Peace for all, not just one.

Why can't the International community put pressure on Netanyahu to withdraw from the West Bank

I agree he must do that, but remember they did it 18 years ago with Gaza and it made no difference.

Give the Palestinians in the region the right to self determination, be it in a separate state

They already have. Palestine was recognised officially. The West Bank hasn't had elections for 15 years though, because the Fatah feel that they will lose! And there is some understandable fear Hamas might get elected and take their place

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/29/world/middleeast/palestinian-vote-delayed.html

Or under one flag, but treated equally?

They would never want that so no point suggesting it. Aside from anything else, they have entirely different value systems, legal systems and ideas. As a good example, if you have one flag with equal rights - how would those who vehemently oppose homosexuality accept the homosexuals? It is much more complicated than this.

Coughingdodger · 13/10/2023 19:11

Pollyputhekettleon · 09/10/2023 21:55

I wonder if a lot of them are actually unaware of really basic stuff, like that there were any Jews in Israel before WW2 though? I would have always been pro-Palestinian pretty much by default, being Irish. I suspect, actually I know, that the vast majority of Irish people are as clueless as I was. But the people you're debating with are presumably more activist, politically motivated leftists/Muslims, which is probably a different ballgame.

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Most Irish people I’ve heard talking about it want BOTH sides to stop murdering children for their own ends.

Coughingdodger · 13/10/2023 19:17

LemonyTicket · 09/10/2023 22:41

A few very good examples of absolutely prolific left-wing antisemitism amongst pro-Palestinians are:

Denying the right of Jews in the State of Israel to exist and flourish, collectively and individually, as Jews, in accordance with the principle of equality. I will talk more about this at the bottom of the post, but many left-wing people defend the right of Palestinian nationalism whilst simultaneously denying the same right of Jews. And they see absolutely no problem with this. When it comes to Palestinians it's "their land" but when it comes to Jews "oh they can live anywhere!"

Requiring people, because they are Jewish, publicly to condemn Israel or Zionism (for example, at a political meeting). This has happened to me endlessly. They have decided "zionism" is racism for their moronic reasons and will then get quite adversarial with Jews demanding that they denounce the concept of Jewish nationalism or else face shame.

Assuming that non-Israeli Jews, simply because they are Jews, are necessarily more loyal to Israel than to their own countries. I have come across this a lot. If I have even remotely offered a balanced view on Israel that doesn't fit the "Palestine are downtrodden" narrative, then I have been outright accused of being a paid lobbyist! (I have never even BEEN to Israel!)

Engaging in really, really classic antisemitism but believing it's okay because they change the words they use to say Jews. So for example they will engage in the most obvious tropes and racist conspiracy theories, ideas where “the Jews” possess hidden power that they use to promote their own collective agenda at the expense of other people. A fantasy that “the Jews” control governments with a “hidden hand,” that they own the banks, control the media, act as “a state within a state,” and all these kinds of things. They outright do that, and you can see it all day every day on Twitter - but they think it's not antisemitism because they say "zionist" or "Israel" instead of Jews.

So I am not talking about "Bigotry" in the sense that most left-wing people would identify it, but all of the above is recognised on the Jerusalem declaration as antisemitism because that's what it is. It is holding Jews to strange standards linked with the age old, pernicious idea that we are crafty, powerful, up to no good and wielding power over some powerless weakling.

Going back to the anti zionism thing, I think this has become the badge of honour for the Pro Palestine brigade, but to me this is a concerning position because it denies the Jewish people alone a right to self-determination; It equates Zionism with racism when really it is a response to the racism of others, it focuses obsessively on the world’s sole Jewish state and holds it to standards to which no other country is subjected.

This idea of an “international Zionist” conspiracy came from soviet propaganda. It draws upon, mimicks and replicates antisemitic myths which stretch back hundreds of years. But because it comes wrapped up in an anti-imperialist package, many on the left can't see it for what it is.

In reality, supporting Hamas or condoning their behavior or even wishing for them to rule over people with their disdain for human rights, women, gays or justice should appal the left. In real terms, if you have left wing values, you must be pro-Israel, pro-Palestine and pro-peace.

For some people, and I spotted a few on this thread, they are using the Palestine issue as a vehicle for disproportionate, ferocious criticism of the Jewish state and dehumanisation of the Israeli people. Of course this state should be held accountable for all it's faults and wrongdoing, but should not be held to standards not expected or demanded of other democratic states.

The cry of "Give them their land back" is not reasoned thinking. Anyone who genuinely considers all people equal might advocate for a negotiated two-state solution to realise the legitimate aspirations of both the Jewish and Palestinian peoples to self-determination and to guarantee Israel’s most precious characteristic: its democratic and Jewish nature. Ignoring that because you don't like Israel shows a deep prejudice.

When people jump on the bandwagon, like one did on the thread last night calling Zionism "evil" and denouncing it in these awful terms, Jews are generally well aware that the denunciation points the finger at them. And ultimately this term has taken the shape of a monster for many lefties - to mean racism, colonialism, western power, money, conspiracy. When really all it actually means is that Jews do have a right to their state. Just like Palestinians.

Your posts are very dogmatic for someone who has never been to Israel (and I’ll bet my bottom dollar you’ve never been to Palestine either).

Coughingdodger · 13/10/2023 19:19

quiteoldad · 09/10/2023 23:00

@LemonyTicket
What I would LIKE to happen is for the international community to step in. To use any force necessary to force Israel to go back to the 1967 borders and to force Gaza to hold free and fair democratic elections. Then I would like them to sign a deal, on the lines of the last one and for everyone to get on with living their lives. I would like to see extremist, terrorist leaders out of Gaza. But that is not something I can make happen even if there were elections held. But once that is done, those people can turn that place into a wonderful, safe and prosperous state.

I'd be happy with that, but this time, as they depart, they leave the West bank settlements in tact.

I agree with you on this post though @LemonyTicket

AhNowTed · 14/10/2023 01:06

LemonyTicket · 13/10/2023 18:36

Can you clarify

They ARE separate countries and indeed Israel bulldozing and occupying parts of a different country is completely wrong and flouts international law

or

They are the same country and Israel can bulldoze what it likes.

Which is is?

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Happy to clarify, though you know EXACTLY what I mean.

As you well know, the OPT (Occupied Palestine Territory), is recognized by the UN. This is the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Palestinian land.

Occupied meaning Palestinians don’t have freedom of movement, the border is patrolled by the Israeli army, and surrounded by a great big wall. No Palestinian can travel between the West Bank and Gaza to see their relatives. No Palestinian can leave the West Bank without going through an Israeli checkpoint.

Correct me if I’m wrong so far, with regards to these “separate countries" you claim, but you forgot to mention that Israel controls Palestinians every movement in and out of the West Bank.

To add insult to injury, to date, under the Israeli government's publicly stated aim of bulldozing Palestinians off their land (and no one is hiding this – it is the stated aim of the Netanyahu government), 650,000 Israelis now live on Palestinian land. Stolen from the Palestinians. Land they can little afford, they have so little left. Palestinians are bulldozed and evicted off their land in favour of Israelis.

Again, you claim they are "separate countries".

How disingenuous are you.

You have the brass neck to lecture all and sundry on this and other threads.

Your gaslighting is off the bloody scale.

(FYI before anyone calls me a terrorist sympathiser - Yes Israel has a right to exist. Yes Israel has a right to defend itself proportionately.)

LemonyTicket · 14/10/2023 01:21

AhNowTed · 14/10/2023 01:06

Happy to clarify, though you know EXACTLY what I mean.

As you well know, the OPT (Occupied Palestine Territory), is recognized by the UN. This is the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Palestinian land.

Occupied meaning Palestinians don’t have freedom of movement, the border is patrolled by the Israeli army, and surrounded by a great big wall. No Palestinian can travel between the West Bank and Gaza to see their relatives. No Palestinian can leave the West Bank without going through an Israeli checkpoint.

Correct me if I’m wrong so far, with regards to these “separate countries" you claim, but you forgot to mention that Israel controls Palestinians every movement in and out of the West Bank.

To add insult to injury, to date, under the Israeli government's publicly stated aim of bulldozing Palestinians off their land (and no one is hiding this – it is the stated aim of the Netanyahu government), 650,000 Israelis now live on Palestinian land. Stolen from the Palestinians. Land they can little afford, they have so little left. Palestinians are bulldozed and evicted off their land in favour of Israelis.

Again, you claim they are "separate countries".

How disingenuous are you.

You have the brass neck to lecture all and sundry on this and other threads.

Your gaslighting is off the bloody scale.

(FYI before anyone calls me a terrorist sympathiser - Yes Israel has a right to exist. Yes Israel has a right to defend itself proportionately.)

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I nearly fell asleep reading that word salad. Let's recap

Someone posted this
Palestinians do not event have passports!

I replied
Israel and Palestine are separate countries. And explained Israel obviously cannot issue passports on behalf of the Palestinian government.

And you have gone off on some irrelevant word salad peppered with more passive aggression, insults and hysteria.

This is very simple:

Israel is responsible for supplying passports to Israeli citizens

PALESTINE is responsible for supplying passports to PALESTINIAN CITIZENS

This is how passports work. You know that perfectly well.

AhNowTed · 14/10/2023 02:00

LemonyTicket · 14/10/2023 01:21

I nearly fell asleep reading that word salad. Let's recap

Someone posted this
Palestinians do not event have passports!

I replied
Israel and Palestine are separate countries. And explained Israel obviously cannot issue passports on behalf of the Palestinian government.

And you have gone off on some irrelevant word salad peppered with more passive aggression, insults and hysteria.

This is very simple:

Israel is responsible for supplying passports to Israeli citizens

PALESTINE is responsible for supplying passports to PALESTINIAN CITIZENS

This is how passports work. You know that perfectly well.

Show quote history

What on earth are you talking about.

You’ve chosen to quote a previous poster that had NOTHING to do with what I said. ZERO.

I was replying directly to you. See your post at 18.36.

I am not surprised. More than once you have deflected when you have no answer.

Deflect and talk about fucking passports, when the rest of us are talking about basic humanity.

LemonyTicket · 14/10/2023 02:59

@AhNowTed

No I have not. This is a screenshot of the post I made. Someone complained Palestinians didn't have passports, I replied (very politely) explaining Israel OBVIOUSLY isn't responsible for that because they are in fact two separate countries and Israel does not issue passports for Palestinian citizens. The Palestinian government is responsible for that.

You have gone off on some mad rant about unrelated things hurling about insults and it's very tiring now. Why do you hate Israel so much? It's bloody weird.

(THREAD 2) To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other?

LemonyTicket · 14/10/2023 03:04

@AhNowTed

And to save any more confusion, above is the screenshot of what In posted and here is your reply.

SOMEONE: Palestinians don't even have passports
ME: Israel isn't responsible for passports, they are two separate countries
YOU: ⬇"Probably the most disingenuous thing I have read on here" (insert more ranting and slagging off Israel etc)

Pointing out Israel doesn't issue passports for people who aren't it's own citizens is a simple fact. Isn't it?!

AhNowTed · 14/10/2023 11:24

Once again for the love of god.

I do not hate Israel.

I have been there many times and have Israeli friends.

I hate the current Israeli government. Why is that weird.

LemonyTicket · 14/10/2023 15:27

It's weird that you are so ragey at someone for simply pointing out an obvious fact that applies to every country on earth. Hating the current Israeli government is not weird - I hate them too - but there could be 500 different Israeli governments and none of them would ever be responsible for issuing passports to citizens of another country....

EsmaCannonball · 14/10/2023 16:10

Why are Israelis or Jewish people never afforded the excuse of having been radicalised by the actions of others?

piddocktrumperiness · 15/10/2023 22:15

I just wanted to add that for 18 months, every Friday in 2018-2019, Thousands of Gaza's citizens marched (peacefully),in what was called The Great March of Return to demand the end of the blockade that was put in place since 2006, and to demand right of return to their ancestral homes.

The demonstrations were mostly non violent, although there were reports of stone throwing and damage to agriculture and Israeli property by a minority of protesters close to the perimeter. The IDF used disproportionate force that left 214 people killed, including 46 children.

In addition, and this directly from the UN website :

"Israeli forces responded by shooting tear gas canisters, some of them dropped from drones, rubber bullets and live ammunition, mostly by snipers. As a result, 214 Palestinians, including 46 children, were killed, and over 36,100, including nearly 8,800 children have been injured. One in five of those injured (over 8,000) were hit by live ammunition.[3] During the same period, one Israeli soldier was killed and seven others were injured during the demonstrations."

"Gaza’s health system has been undermined by the over-decade long Israeli blockade, the internal Palestinian divide, a chronic power deficit and shortages in specialized staff, drugs and equipment. Consequently, people with complex injuries are frequently referred to more advanced facilities in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and sometimes in Israel. To reach these facilities, patients require an exit permits from the Israeli authorities, which are not always granted or granted in time.

Out of the 604 permit applications submitted for people injured during the GMR, only 17 per cent were approved, 28 per cent were rejected and 55 per cent did not receive an answer in time for the medical appointment

An independent commission of inquiry appointed by the Human Rights Council (HRC), investigated all demonstration-related fatalities and more than 700 injuries since the start of the GMR through the end of 2018. With the exception of two cases, the commission found reasonable grounds to believe that the use of live ammunition by Israeli forces was unlawful.[10] The Government of Israel rejected the findings of the HRC commission as biased, stating that they failed to consider the threat posed by violent acts from Gaza.

The demonstrations were mostly peaceful, with women and children marching btw.

Anyway, it continues to say...

The Israeli military has set up a fact-finding mechanism to assess allegations in the context of the GMR. According to the Israeli authorities, as of end July 2019 this mechanism reviewed 226 cases and referred ten of them for a criminal investigation by the Military Police.[11]

So far, only ONE soldier was prosecuted for the killing of a 14-year-old boy during a demonstration: in October 2019 he was convicted of “unauthorized shooting” and sentenced to ONE month in prison and a suspended prison sentence of two-months. According to the High Commissioner for Human Rights, “the case appears to highlight structural limitations inherent to the Israeli military justice system in focusing on the responsibility of soldiers in complying with orders and standard operating procedures, without addressing the legality of those same rules of engagement and the connected responsibility of military commanders”.[12]

The Palestinians are screwed.

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/two-years-on-people-injured-and-traumatized-during-the-great-march-of-return-are-still-struggling/

United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied Palestinian territory | Two years on: people injured and traumatized during the “Great March of Return” are still struggling

Mohammed, 35 and father of three, from Beit Hanoun, was shot with a live bullet in the leg during the first “Great March of Return” (GMR) demonstration on 30 March 2018. “I went through 25 surgeries, but I’m still in pain,” he told OCHA. As a result of...

https://www.ochaopt.org/content/two-years-people-injured-and-traumatized-during-great-march-return-are-still-struggling#ftn3