(THREAD 2) To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other?

[Poudretteite]

Not OP just created another thread as the first one was full

Back to Israel

Also, the reason Israel went beyond the borders was that Palestine refused to accept them, waged war, and then lost. It was their gamble.

Would you give up your home in Europe because someone from another country said its their birth right.

And when you fought back and was put in an even worse place was told that you deserved it? Should've moved when you had the chance?

I don't think you would.

It all seems so futile and depressing. I heard the point that no powers seem to be speaking about peace, rather taking sides. It's impossible to credibly take a side though unless you know the complicated history of that area and I certainly don't (and if I'm really honest, don't care enough to learn) obviously I'm very sorry for anyone losing their lives in seemingly endless conflict.

But yes I do think that many left-wing/liberal Western supporters of the Palestinian cause assume that they yearn for the same kind of society that they themselves live in, for a liberal democracy

Totally. It's a kind of projection. I honestly don't know who Palestinians would vote for but they are probably pretty openly indoctrinated to think the current way is the right way, so it's not hard for me to believe they'd keep Hamas.But yes I do think that many left-wing/liberal Western supporters of the Palestinian cause assume that they yearn for the same kind of society that they themselves live in, for a liberal democracy

Totally. It's a kind of projection. I honestly don't know who Palestinians would vote for but they are probably pretty openly indoctrinated to think the current way is the right way, so it's not hard for me to believe they'd keep Hamas.

I think a lot of it is a kind of naive reverse racism. They think all brown people are the same, and if only the Western Imperialists disappeared, all those Brown people would realise how much they had in common and all get along, when they are different peoples, with nothing in common with each other in many cases and huge variations in history and background.

But it IS their homeland!

Clue - who founded the city of Jerusalem?

I think we are on the same wavelength @Angrycat2768 . Palestine voted in Hamas, if the Jewish population were removed from the equation I don't think they would suddenly become a liberal democracy.

Jerusalem was founded by the Canaanites, the ancestors of Jews and Arabs, and was conquered by King David. From what I can tell, anyway.

Let's just be clear.

The Palestinians in Gaza are controlled by Hamas. Population 2.3m

The Palestinians in the West Bank (State of Palestine) are controlled by the Palestinian Authority, who's president is Mahmoud Abbas. Population 2.7m

There's another 1.6m who live in Israel.

They are not all the same.

And London was founded by the Romans - hopefully no modern day Italians will be claiming ownership

Palestine voted In Hamas

If that's what you really think @SizzlestheSausageDog then please read more and comment less

‘And London was founded by the Romans - hopefully no modern day Italians will be claiming ownership’ 😅

no. I don’t have much time for any religion claiming rights in modern times because of something their holy book claims happens thousands of years ago.
there’s respect for peoples beliefs, and there’s common sense.

My friend’s mum ( Israeli born but married and moved to London 50 years ago) is of the opinion that Jewish people are gods chosen people and god gave them the land that is now Israel and everyone else needs to shift somewhere else. She’d happily see every single Palestinian dead. They’re less than human in her eyes.

religious extremists are all bloody mad, regardless of their persuasion.

That was exactly my point!

How odd. That's certainly not what you said.

@Glitterdavies

Parkingt111
@LemonyTicket
What I would LIKE to happen is for the international community to step in. To use any force necessary to force Israel to go back to the 1967 borders

I agree with the above
But where would you propose the Jewish settlers who have settled beyond the borders move to?

Back to Israel

+++

Firstly no country is going to be willing to offer its forces to make Israel go back to its 1967 borders.

And even if Israel voluntarily went back to the 1967 borders then you are naive if you think this will stop the conflict. Hamas which are supported by more than50% of the population in Gaza want nothing less than the wholesale destruction of Israel.

I do agree with you though that illegal Israeli settlers on the West Bank should move back to Israel. Not only is it illegal but it only serves to piss off the Palestinian Authorities who are the reasonable ones in this cluster fuck.

I replied to this
But yes I do think that many left-wing/liberal Western supporters of the Palestinian cause assume that they yearn for the same kind of society that they themselves live in, for a liberal democracy

with

I think a lot of it is a kind of naive reverse racism. They think all brown people are the same, and if only the Western Imperialists disappeared, all those Brown people would realise how much they had in common and all get along, when they are different peoples, with nothing in common with each other in many cases and huge variations in history and background.

@DisquietintheRanks that's what the Wikipedia article on Gaza says, if it is wrong please point me to a relevant resource. I believe they do a level of fact checking, especially on such a contentious area.

I think it's disgusting that many people are cheering on the Palestine terrorist group for murdering, raping and kidnapping people at an Israeli music festival. The vile people say that Israelis deserved it for being on land that doesn't belong to them... Even though the land has belonged to the Jews for millennia. Judaism is a lot older than Islam. I feel for innocent civilians on either side who want peace, not war.

@SizzlestheSausageDog Can we please stop lumping Hamas with the rest of Palestine?

They are ONLY IN GAZA- NOT THE WEST BANK. Many, many Palestinians live in the West Bank and East Jerusalem- have nothing, absolutely nothing to do with Hamas. Hamas has not authority over them either.

Palestine did not, vote them in. Please refrain from using absolutes

The conflation of Hamas and all Palestinians is very unfair.

Warsaw ghetto.

@Angrycat2768

I think a lot of it is a kind of naive reverse racism. They think all brown people are the same, and if only the Western Imperialists disappeared, all those Brown people would realise how much they had in common and all get along, when they are different peoples, with nothing in common with each other in many cases and huge variations in history and background

Completely. It's so patronising! I think this is how they excuse stuff like terrorism and medieval brutality. Its a bit like ",oh the poor savages don't know any better". It grates me.

Countries like Iran and surrounding parts of Persia were historically the roots of the most sophisticated thinking and civilisations. They were busy inventing the windmill 500 years before the birth of Christ.

Where they've gone has more to do with the domination of traditional Islamic secular rule, and that led to a lack of a framework of education, democracy and all the fertile grounds of development.

You're missing quite a few important facts and detail there.

President Abbas has lost control over a northern swath of the West Bank, especially after he called off an election. Polls indicated Fatah would suffer another humiliating defeat to Hamas. Around two-thirds of Palestinians opposed his decision to call off the vote.

On top of that, there is considerable support in the West Bank for terrorist groups who reject the authority of the Palestinian Authority. Palestinian pollster Khalil Shikaki and his Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PCPSR) found that 72% of Palestinians support forming more armed groups in West Bank. 65% of Palestinians in West Bank support the concept of armed groups taking NO orders from the Palestinian Authority. Numbers were higher in Gaza, where 84% of respondents backed the concept.

A minority of Gazans do NOT support Hamas.

Even Abbas' Fatah party has an armed wing. Around 14% of Palestinians supported them in 2021. Hamas has more support.

True that Palestinians are not a monolithic group.

True also that a majority of Palestinians support Hamas and a majority in the West Bank support armed groups taking NO orders from the Palestinian Authority.

The worst thing for all Palestinians is for them to completely reject the Palestinian Authority. Palestinians believe the Palestinian Authority is weak since they're willing to work with the Israeli Government. Hamas fully exploits that issue to great effect.

Totally agree with you. What Hamas did was abhorrent as much as what the Israeli government is doing now is. Stopping food, water, medication and electricity to nearly 3 millions people is beyond belief. Let's not mention the constant bombing. These people have nowhere to go. Thank you lucky star that you were born here and not there.

I thought this was interesting, as it may go some way to explaining why Abbas as lost support.

For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces

The premier’s policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from

For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.

The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.

Link to full article in The Times of Israel...

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

Just to be clear, this is you justifying the destruction of London Jewish shops?