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(THREAD 2) To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other?

190 replies

Poudretteite · 09/10/2023 19:51

Not OP just created another thread as the first one was full

OP posts:
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DisquietintheRanks · 09/10/2023 20:51

Poudretteite · 09/10/2023 20:03

@mrsmara Kindly point out where I say 'Hamas is justified in wanting to destroy Israel and the Jews?

You said it wasn't any surprise in response to Hamas saying they will not accept the existence of Israel at all. So what is Israel supposed to do?

What Israel should do is offer a (sensible) two state solution. Hamas may want to destroy the state of Israel totally (its a slogan that plays wonderfully with its electorate) but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of Palestinians would settle for that. And even Hamas once said it would.

What's more interesting is what Israel would give away to win peace. In recent years they seem to be doing pretty well with their slow land grab so why would they want to change?

Poudretteite · 09/10/2023 20:56

DisquietintheRanks · 09/10/2023 20:51

What Israel should do is offer a (sensible) two state solution. Hamas may want to destroy the state of Israel totally (its a slogan that plays wonderfully with its electorate) but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of Palestinians would settle for that. And even Hamas once said it would.

What's more interesting is what Israel would give away to win peace. In recent years they seem to be doing pretty well with their slow land grab so why would they want to change?

The two state solution was wrecked when Israel gave up Gaza as a good faith gesture and Palestine immediately started using it to attack Israel. Palestine would use what they were given to try and take more as their motive is to destroy Israel and eliminate the Jews.

OP posts:
LemonyTicket · 09/10/2023 20:58

@DisquietintheRanks

What Israel should do is offer a (sensible) two state solution. Hamas may want to destroy the state of Israel totally (its a slogan that plays wonderfully with its electorate) but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of Palestinians would settle for that. And even Hamas once said it would

Are you saying the last 5 deals including the one negotiated over years at the camp david summits weren't sensible offers? how so? the feedback from that was they they wouldn't say yes to anything.

What's more interesting is what Israel would give away to win peace. In recent years they seem to be doing pretty well with their slow land grab so why would they want to change?

I am not sure how that is a good thing really. They have to spend a lot of money on defence and weapons and there's little more costly than perpetual war. It damaged their reputation internationally. As well as trade. Peace would undoubtedly be better for Israel.

For Hamas though, it would mean the gravy train of foreign aid currently being used for the leaders to live in luxury and siphon funds offshore would be over. What would they do then? They have no industry? No agriculture? No educated population really? Terrorism isn't a career.

I think it's glaringly obvious who is better served by peace and who is better served by perpetual fighting.

BMW6 · 09/10/2023 20:59

Sippingmytea · 09/10/2023 20:49

But by the same logic that suggests that all British people are Tories and we support everything our government does?

People are not their governments. People can also support freedom for Palestinians and equally be disgusted by the actions of Hamas.

It is a real shame that people on this thread are so closed minded.

FFS.

Someone wearing a Palestinian flag in the light if the last 24 hours is doing nothing less than celebrating Hamas actions in Israel.

Behave yourself. There is no other reasonable interpretation.

DisquietintheRanks · 09/10/2023 21:01

Poudretteite · 09/10/2023 20:56

The two state solution was wrecked when Israel gave up Gaza as a good faith gesture and Palestine immediately started using it to attack Israel. Palestine would use what they were given to try and take more as their motive is to destroy Israel and eliminate the Jews.

I don't think anyone could argue that what Israel does with and to Gaza is done in good faith. Not without fearing a lighting strike.

BMW6 · 09/10/2023 21:02

DisquietintheRanks · 09/10/2023 20:51

What Israel should do is offer a (sensible) two state solution. Hamas may want to destroy the state of Israel totally (its a slogan that plays wonderfully with its electorate) but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of Palestinians would settle for that. And even Hamas once said it would.

What's more interesting is what Israel would give away to win peace. In recent years they seem to be doing pretty well with their slow land grab so why would they want to change?

The 2 State solution has been offered to Israel and Palestine 5 times.

Every single time Israel has agreed, Palestine said No.

5 times.

Look it up.

DisquietintheRanks · 09/10/2023 21:14

@BMW6 then I guess the answer is to work out a 2 (or even 3) state solution that is palatable to both sides.

What do you think the alternative would be?

Pollyputhekettleon · 09/10/2023 21:18

Takoneko · 09/10/2023 20:11

I’m not saying I agree with their arguments. I think I’ve made it clear that I think that the international community should have stepped in to enforce the partition plan whether the Arab Palestinians liked it or not. It was a fair balance between the competing claims and I support Israel’s right to exist.

And yes, I’m aware that were issues before World War Two. I believe I was the one who pointed out that the British limiting of visas was a response to the 1936-39 Arab Uprising. Jewish people were moving out of Europe in the 1930s after the Nazis took power. It didn’t begin in 1945. The Arab Uprising was triggered by the increased Jewish migration after 1933. It’s worth noting that Britain was only willing to waive visa requirements for unaccompanied children on their own soil in 1938.

Fair enough. Do you know why none of the other pro-Palestine, anti-Israel, whatever you call them, posters on here are answering this? I mean, is there a good answer out there?

Poudretteite · 09/10/2023 21:19

DisquietintheRanks · 09/10/2023 21:14

@BMW6 then I guess the answer is to work out a 2 (or even 3) state solution that is palatable to both sides.

What do you think the alternative would be?

The point is Palestine has said they will only be happy with 100%. They do not support the existence of Israel. This is why they cannot come to agreement.

OP posts:
Takoneko · 09/10/2023 21:29

Poudretteite · 09/10/2023 21:19

The point is Palestine has said they will only be happy with 100%. They do not support the existence of Israel. This is why they cannot come to agreement.

Hamas is only happy with 100%. Hamas are not Palestine. They are in power in Gaza but not in the West Bank and they are not in charge of the PNA, which is the internationally recognised representative of the Palestinian people. The PNA is in favour of a two state solution, and has been pretty consistently since the Oslo Accords.

Takoneko · 09/10/2023 21:36

Pollyputhekettleon · 09/10/2023 21:18

Fair enough. Do you know why none of the other pro-Palestine, anti-Israel, whatever you call them, posters on here are answering this? I mean, is there a good answer out there?

Honestly, I think people are conditioned to like stories with “good guys” and “bad guys”. They see a situation like this and want there to be a “good side” and a “bad side”. The messy reality that both sides have done awful things and that it’s a story of abject failure by the international community to take responsibility for a situation that they were instrumental in creating doesn’t give people the same satisfaction as it being a simple story of good vs evil where they can pick the right “side” to be on.

There are bad actors on both sides and good actors on both sides but there is not a good side and a bad side. I think people find that psychologically unsatisfying and all a bit too complicated.

Takoneko · 09/10/2023 21:37

I’d also like to make it very clear that I am not pro-Palestine, anti-Israeli.

JuvenileEmu · 09/10/2023 21:38

DisquietintheRanks · 09/10/2023 21:14

@BMW6 then I guess the answer is to work out a 2 (or even 3) state solution that is palatable to both sides.

What do you think the alternative would be?

But how can this happen when Hamas won't make any kind of compromise whatsoever? They have made it quite clear that anything short of the destruction of Israel is unacceptable to them.

LemonyTicket · 09/10/2023 21:46

@Pollyputhekettleon

I've discussed it many times with pro-Palestine, anti-Israel people and without exception they turn out to hold antisemitic views once you really engage them on the topic.

They want a one state solution, with Israel to not exist.

Pollyputhekettleon · 09/10/2023 21:50

Takoneko · 09/10/2023 21:37

I’d also like to make it very clear that I am not pro-Palestine, anti-Israeli.

Yeah sorry I didn't mean that as a description of your position, it was clumsily phrased but you got what I was asking.

Pollyputhekettleon · 09/10/2023 21:55

LemonyTicket · 09/10/2023 21:46

@Pollyputhekettleon

I've discussed it many times with pro-Palestine, anti-Israel people and without exception they turn out to hold antisemitic views once you really engage them on the topic.

They want a one state solution, with Israel to not exist.

I wonder if a lot of them are actually unaware of really basic stuff, like that there were any Jews in Israel before WW2 though? I would have always been pro-Palestinian pretty much by default, being Irish. I suspect, actually I know, that the vast majority of Irish people are as clueless as I was. But the people you're debating with are presumably more activist, politically motivated leftists/Muslims, which is probably a different ballgame.

quiteoldad · 09/10/2023 21:58

I've discussed it many times with pro-Palestine, anti-Israel people and without exception they turn out to hold antisemitic views once you really engage them on the topic.

I too have discussed the topic many times with pro-Palestine, anti-Israel people and I've found that by far the greater majority of them are not anti-semites.

You must obviously debate the topic with a lot of anti-semites. I tend to avoid those kind of people because there is little point in debating with bigots.

MMBaranova · 09/10/2023 22:00

The Ukraine war thread is now at: Ukraine Invasion: Part 45

I'd link it but my Mumsnet Foo is in a bad state after the last thread froze as I was replying and it froze.

Pollyputhekettleon · 09/10/2023 22:01

quiteoldad · 09/10/2023 21:58

I've discussed it many times with pro-Palestine, anti-Israel people and without exception they turn out to hold antisemitic views once you really engage them on the topic.

I too have discussed the topic many times with pro-Palestine, anti-Israel people and I've found that by far the greater majority of them are not anti-semites.

You must obviously debate the topic with a lot of anti-semites. I tend to avoid those kind of people because there is little point in debating with bigots.

In your experience how do they explain why the Arabs objected to the two-state solution in the beginning? And what do they say about the whole dhimmitude business?

Rinoachicken · 09/10/2023 22:03

As someone who didnt really have a clear understanding of the history, I have found this short explanation a good place to start.

I don’t know if it’s 100% accurate but it has helped give me a better idea of the situation and how it has come about so I can now go and do further reading.

History of Israel-Palestine Conflict

This video presents the History of Israel-Palestine conflict that rooted a few thousand years ago. Chapter:00:00 Introduction00:42 Early History of Israeli-P...

https://youtu.be/m19F4IHTVGc?si=vM8Hc1QYxUhO8WTP

LemonyTicket · 09/10/2023 22:06

There's another thread going along the lines of "I don't understand Israel Palestine" and I read the first couple of pages and felt ill. Most people are on there giving very strong opinions without the slightest fucking clue what they are talking about.

I don't expect people to understand this issue very well. I am Jewish. I am Arab. I have lived at least half my life in the Middle East. I have a degree in Theology and a Masters in Middle Eastern studies. It's been my life's work to study the ancient land of Israel and it's modern formation.

What annoys me is that people are so arrogant that they wade in with all the confidence in the world and misrepresent the facts in a way that distorts the problem. Many people on these threads have raised Northern Ireland and Ukraine. I have never commented. Why? Because I don't know enough about those topics to comment.

This thread was great because people largely didn't wade in with nonsense. They discussed, asked questions and it was a serious conversation. But the Western world has a habit of arrogance. Not just in assuming they know everything, but in assuming everyone is like them - when actually different cultures can have very different values around the world.

I have said before, this issue became very trendy for people this last couple of years. The marches and the "free Palestine" slogans and the flags on your profile. Like being gluten intolerant or having the right trainers. It's quite a cringe "comfortable westerner" virtue signal that you're down with current affairs and a Palestinian supporter.

Ultimately they genuinely have almost no fucking clue of what they are supporting. They trot out punch lines which are off the shelf propaganda and have no understanding of the meaning or context. I reckon if you took 100 of these people and asked them 10 basic questions on this issue they constantly ramble on about - perhaps 1 of them might be able to answer!

So largely I think people have absolutely no idea what they are talking about, but they want to feel part of things so they basically pick the "side" that fits their persona. And right now, it's cool to be Pro-Palestine. Down with the imperialist, colonial, blood sucking Israel! That's basically it.

I also think antisemitism is a massive problem on the left of politics. I am left wing and had to more or less stop using twitter because people I liked would be immensely antisemitic and then angrily deny it if you pointed it out - even politely. I was made to feel uncomfortable a LOT because these people have such massive anti Jewish bias which they can't admit to. They can't accept that they - a left wing, highly tolerate, committed antiracist might well be trotting out all the same tired old tropes about Jewish Power and conspiracies that Hitler did. But that is what they are doing.

So the problem is, the left wing of politics are traditionally leaned on to police things like racism, bias, prejudice etc. But they are so invested in the penniless Muslim as the underdog that they can't see that they are actually being immensely biased and holding up the two sides to completely different standards. They also can't see their general philosophy is actually seriously offensive.

I read a fantastic book on this a while ago by a professor in Sheffield, on basically how antisemitism is the one form of prejudice the left can't see and I completely agree with that. I had to stay off Twitter completely in the wake of this because all these socialists who I used to identify with are more or less backing Hamas in this.

Crazy. But I guess antisemitism is such a subtle art form, so deeply ingrained into people's prejudices and because it's not "punching down" at someone necessarily poorer, weaker or generally not white - that some people are completely unable to clock it. Certainly me and my grown children have been pretty deeply distressed by it though.

quiteoldad · 09/10/2023 22:08

@ POLLY
We rarely taked about Jews in middle easten countries. I used to mention about how the situation for Jews in the middle east centuries ago was preferable to how it is now . Though I might modify that after having done a bit more reading and having been "filled in" by L. Again, earlier proposals of solutions didn't come up.
Main discussions are about how to sort the mess out today. Part of the problem is parties laying historical claim to........ or bringing up atrocities wreaked by the other party. Look bloody forward to getting a settlement..... don't pick at old sores.

LemonyTicket · 09/10/2023 22:10

@quiteoldad

I too have discussed the topic many times with pro-Palestine, anti-Israel people and I've found that by far the greater majority of them are not anti-semites

Without being rude to you, antisemitism generally isn't bigotry, and people who don't understand it often can't see it.

SkinnyMalinkyLankyLegs · 09/10/2023 22:22

@LemonyTicket do you think that long term, the situation will ever be resolved and that Israel and Palestine will ever see peace? If so, what do you think would need to happen to make that a reality?

quiteoldad · 09/10/2023 22:26

Without being rude to you, antisemitism generally isn't bigotry, and people who don't understand it often can't see it.

If it isn't bigotry, what is it ? I've just had a look and it says

"in particular prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group"
On the Venn diagram, I would place anti-semitism as being a subset of Bigotry.