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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

(THREAD 2) To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other?

190 replies

Poudretteite · 09/10/2023 19:51

Not OP just created another thread as the first one was full

OP posts:
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14
MMBaranova · 09/10/2023 22:35

@SkinnyMalinkyLankyLegs

I think that's a good question. I have no optimism there and I don't think it is entirely due to my being upset over the current horrors. I can identify four general zones along a continuum: 1 a solution that is accepted by the various parties < > 2 a modus vivendi while the former is worked on and the next is avoided < >3 tit for tat animosity, violence and unfairness < > 4 war / intifada / escalated horror and misery.

Recently the situation has been at my stage 3 and has now dropped to 4. There have been more hopeful times where there has been stage 2 and Nobel Prizes all round. Can a stage 1 be found? I don't see one at the moment.

LemonyTicket · 09/10/2023 22:41

A few very good examples of absolutely prolific left-wing antisemitism amongst pro-Palestinians are:

  • Denying the right of Jews in the State of Israel to exist and flourish, collectively and individually, as Jews, in accordance with the principle of equality. I will talk more about this at the bottom of the post, but many left-wing people defend the right of Palestinian nationalism whilst simultaneously denying the same right of Jews. And they see absolutely no problem with this. When it comes to Palestinians it's "their land" but when it comes to Jews "oh they can live anywhere!"
  • Requiring people, because they are Jewish, publicly to condemn Israel or Zionism (for example, at a political meeting). This has happened to me endlessly. They have decided "zionism" is racism for their moronic reasons and will then get quite adversarial with Jews demanding that they denounce the concept of Jewish nationalism or else face shame.
  • Assuming that non-Israeli Jews, simply because they are Jews, are necessarily more loyal to Israel than to their own countries. I have come across this a lot. If I have even remotely offered a balanced view on Israel that doesn't fit the "Palestine are downtrodden" narrative, then I have been outright accused of being a paid lobbyist! (I have never even BEEN to Israel!)
  • Engaging in really, really classic antisemitism but believing it's okay because they change the words they use to say Jews. So for example they will engage in the most obvious tropes and racist conspiracy theories, ideas where “the Jews” possess hidden power that they use to promote their own collective agenda at the expense of other people. A fantasy that “the Jews” control governments with a “hidden hand,” that they own the banks, control the media, act as “a state within a state,” and all these kinds of things. They outright do that, and you can see it all day every day on Twitter - but they think it's not antisemitism because they say "zionist" or "Israel" instead of Jews.

So I am not talking about "Bigotry" in the sense that most left-wing people would identify it, but all of the above is recognised on the Jerusalem declaration as antisemitism because that's what it is. It is holding Jews to strange standards linked with the age old, pernicious idea that we are crafty, powerful, up to no good and wielding power over some powerless weakling.

Going back to the anti zionism thing, I think this has become the badge of honour for the Pro Palestine brigade, but to me this is a concerning position because it denies the Jewish people alone a right to self-determination; It equates Zionism with racism when really it is a response to the racism of others, it focuses obsessively on the world’s sole Jewish state and holds it to standards to which no other country is subjected.

This idea of an “international Zionist” conspiracy came from soviet propaganda. It draws upon, mimicks and replicates antisemitic myths which stretch back hundreds of years. But because it comes wrapped up in an anti-imperialist package, many on the left can't see it for what it is.

In reality, supporting Hamas or condoning their behavior or even wishing for them to rule over people with their disdain for human rights, women, gays or justice should appal the left. In real terms, if you have left wing values, you must be pro-Israel, pro-Palestine and pro-peace.

For some people, and I spotted a few on this thread, they are using the Palestine issue as a vehicle for disproportionate, ferocious criticism of the Jewish state and dehumanisation of the Israeli people. Of course this state should be held accountable for all it's faults and wrongdoing, but should not be held to standards not expected or demanded of other democratic states.

The cry of "Give them their land back" is not reasoned thinking. Anyone who genuinely considers all people equal might advocate for a negotiated two-state solution to realise the legitimate aspirations of both the Jewish and Palestinian peoples to self-determination and to guarantee Israel’s most precious characteristic: its democratic and Jewish nature. Ignoring that because you don't like Israel shows a deep prejudice.

When people jump on the bandwagon, like one did on the thread last night calling Zionism "evil" and denouncing it in these awful terms, Jews are generally well aware that the denunciation points the finger at them. And ultimately this term has taken the shape of a monster for many lefties - to mean racism, colonialism, western power, money, conspiracy. When really all it actually means is that Jews do have a right to their state. Just like Palestinians.

ticketstickets · 09/10/2023 22:44

Pollyputhekettleon · 09/10/2023 21:55

I wonder if a lot of them are actually unaware of really basic stuff, like that there were any Jews in Israel before WW2 though? I would have always been pro-Palestinian pretty much by default, being Irish. I suspect, actually I know, that the vast majority of Irish people are as clueless as I was. But the people you're debating with are presumably more activist, politically motivated leftists/Muslims, which is probably a different ballgame.

So I am sure you are aware, being Irish, that the grandfather of the current Israeli President, Isaac Herzog, was the first Chief Rabbi of the Republic of Ireland, and was known as the Sinn Fein Rabbi.

Its not incompatible to be a Zionist and and an Irish patriot. :)

LemonyTicket · 09/10/2023 22:49

@SkinnyMalinkyLankyLegs

do you think that long term, the situation will ever be resolved and that Israel and Palestine will ever see peace? If so, what do you think would need to happen to make that a reality?

Let me answer first with what I would like to happen.

What I would LIKE to happen is for the international community to step in. To use any force necessary to force Israel to go back to the 1967 borders and to force Gaza to hold free and fair democratic elections. Then I would like them to sign a deal, on the lines of the last one and for everyone to get on with living their lives. I would like to see extremist, terrorist leaders out of Gaza. But that is not something I can make happen even if there were elections held. But once that is done, those people can turn that place into a wonderful, safe and prosperous state.

What I actually think will happen is that they will fight a while longer and Israel will blow Hamas off the planet and likely a lot of innocent people will suffer and die. After which they will probably fight with Iran and Syria.

It's shit.

But then so is the situations in Iran and Syria. People put so much focus on this but the situations in some of those countries is absolutely horrifying.

LemonyTicket · 09/10/2023 22:53

@quiteoldad

If it isn't bigotry, what is it?

It can be bigotry. For example not wanting to hire someone because they are Jewish. But antisemitism is much more common in the form I have explained above: holding general beliefs about Jews (or zionists, or israel) which link into hundreds years of tropes about power / conspiracies/ looking after their own and generally being treated differently.

It doesn't usually present in the obvious - hit you in the face way that afrophobia or islamophobia do, and Jews (certainly in Britain) are unlikely to face discrimination on almost any level. It becomes something else, deeply held beliefs which tie in to all the same ideas which sent us into diaspora for thousands of years.

theDudesmummy · 09/10/2023 22:55

@ticketstickets that is interesting about Hertzog's grandfather. I live in Ireland but am not (yet) Irish, but am English. I had not realised until reading various news outlets here today how pro-Palestinian Ireland appears to be. I see they were one of the 4 countries in the EU who vetoed the stopping of aid to Palestine today.

FWIW I myself don't know what to think. My father was born in Palestine (he is British though, his father was doing business there) and growing up I was always taught to be pro-Palestinian (my parents would say "next year in Jerusalem" as a toast). But I went to a school which was predominantly Jewish. So I always realised there were two ways of looking at this region.

Now I just feel desperately sorry for all the poor civilians, on both side, and I would not take to the streets with either flag because I don't support either army.

quiteoldad · 09/10/2023 23:00

@LemonyTicket
What I would LIKE to happen is for the international community to step in. To use any force necessary to force Israel to go back to the 1967 borders and to force Gaza to hold free and fair democratic elections. Then I would like them to sign a deal, on the lines of the last one and for everyone to get on with living their lives. I would like to see extremist, terrorist leaders out of Gaza. But that is not something I can make happen even if there were elections held. But once that is done, those people can turn that place into a wonderful, safe and prosperous state.

I'd be happy with that, but this time, as they depart, they leave the West bank settlements in tact.

Floppyelf · 09/10/2023 23:00

LemonyTicket · 09/10/2023 20:25

Yes @Takoneko

It would be a completely different story if the people of Gaza had elected a more moderate government with much more liberal / western ideas so they could live side by side with shared values - but as is - they need different places to live because they have completely different ideas on how to live.

What would be very nice, is if Arabs who wanted to choose to come and live in Israel under a moderate / Western style way of life were given the right to do that. Eg: right of abode - similar to what we get in British overseas territories.

However, I feel this might be a fantasy of mine. I think one of the things groups like Hamas or countries like Iran or Syria fear most is that some Muslims might see the way of life under a liberal democracy and decide that sounds better!

However, I feel this might be a fantasy of mine. I think one of the things groups like Hamas or countries like Iran or Syria fear most is that some Muslims might see the way of life under a liberal democracy and decide that sounds better!

that is the case here in the UK unless you live in a blindspot area where its just one culture of 1st/2nd/3rd generation immigrants.

The fact that that hardcore islamist states like saudi arabia/uae/qatar have embraced some western values means that through lifting people out of poverty it brings in some rational thinking or atleast introduces it.

LemonyTicket · 09/10/2023 23:05

@quiteoldad

I'd be happy with that, but this time, as they depart, they leave the West bank settlements in tact

My "in tact" do you mean they should leave behind their property? Why? It belongs to them!

ticketstickets · 09/10/2023 23:07

theDudesmummy · 09/10/2023 22:55

@ticketstickets that is interesting about Hertzog's grandfather. I live in Ireland but am not (yet) Irish, but am English. I had not realised until reading various news outlets here today how pro-Palestinian Ireland appears to be. I see they were one of the 4 countries in the EU who vetoed the stopping of aid to Palestine today.

FWIW I myself don't know what to think. My father was born in Palestine (he is British though, his father was doing business there) and growing up I was always taught to be pro-Palestinian (my parents would say "next year in Jerusalem" as a toast). But I went to a school which was predominantly Jewish. So I always realised there were two ways of looking at this region.

Now I just feel desperately sorry for all the poor civilians, on both side, and I would not take to the streets with either flag because I don't support either army.

almost twins. :)

Also British, live in Ireland, and my father was born in Palestine. (to Jewish refugees from Europe).

LemonyTicket · 09/10/2023 23:10

@Floppyelf

We are able to live in a multicultural society in Britain because it is enshrined with human rights. It's not legal to reduce someone to a worse status or ban them from living somewhere or doing certain jobs because they're a minority. They have a full set of human rights which protect them from that.

That would not be the case in an Arab led Israel. The human rights we have here, are almost unheard of in the Arab world. Dubai is a good example of a Muslim country that embraces other cultures. But I lived there for 6 years. It only does so on paper. In reality, an Arab has far more rights than an Indian. A woman has far less rights that a man. You can't be homosexual. There are no elections.

It is also an anomaly because it's a ridiculously rich country, so people have good lives and want to keep it that way. But it still operates on a caste system with locals at the top, western "expats" in the middle (but with no actual rights!) and then the lower cast such as Indians treated like absolute dirt and paid slave wages.

quiteoldad · 09/10/2023 23:15

By "in tact" do you mean they should leave behind their property? Why? It belongs to them!

Jesus wept, we're trying to sort out 75 years of violent, mutual animosity and you're quibbling about whether or not you take the light bulbs and door handles with you.

LemonyTicket · 09/10/2023 23:18

What's absolutely mad to me is that you're still going on about it! @quiteoldad

Look back to "holding Israel to completely different standards!"

SomeCatFromJapan · 09/10/2023 23:37

@LemonyTicket we lived in Doha for a bit and the pay scales for government jobs were literally linked to nationality - with Brits, Americans, Canadians and Western Europeans obviously getting the best pay. They still had the kafala system while we were there although I know there's been reform now.

And yes you had to really watch what you said on social media.
Don't get me wrong I didn't complain, and I still don't really join in the critisism, as I accept it's just a completely different culture and we chose to be there.

But yes I do think that many left-wing/liberal Western supporters of the Palestinian cause assume that they yearn for the same kind of society that they themselves live in, for a liberal democracy. Hence the large crossover of LGBT/Queer groups with Palestine flags in their bios etc whereas they would presumably get extremely short shrift in Gaza if they were openly gay or trans.

I think you said you were no Netanyahu/Likud fan and I agree with you there, I asked you yesterday about the differences between Gaza and the West Bank and you kindly gave me a very detailed answer, am I right in thinking there are ongoing tensions and unpleasantness in the West Bank? Is it true that Palestinians get removed from their houses to accommodate settlers or is there also more of a back story there?

DownNative · 09/10/2023 23:37

ticketstickets · 09/10/2023 22:44

So I am sure you are aware, being Irish, that the grandfather of the current Israeli President, Isaac Herzog, was the first Chief Rabbi of the Republic of Ireland, and was known as the Sinn Fein Rabbi.

Its not incompatible to be a Zionist and and an Irish patriot. :)

Chaim Herzog. An article:

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/life/features/israeli-politician-isaac-herzog-on-singing-dups-praises-in-ni-and-why-a-blue-plaque-to-his-late-father-should-be-returned-to-his-former-belfast-home/37435340.html

As you can see, Isaac found it wasn't that straightforward. His father's blue circle was vandalised by anti-Israel elements - tends to be Republicans. And he wasn't best pleased with Provisional Sinn Féin’s comments about Israel. But he felt the DUP understood Israel.

Israeli politician Isaac Herzog on singing DUP's praises in NI and why a blue plaque to his late father should be returned to his former Belfast home

One of Israel's most influential public figures has paid tribute to the DUP during his first visit to Belfast to see the birthplace of his father Chaim Herzog, who was the President of his country in the 1980s.

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/life/features/israeli-politician-isaac-herzog-on-singing-dups-praises-in-ni-and-why-a-blue-plaque-to-his-late-father-should-be-returned-to-his-former-belfast-home/37435340.html

LemonyTicket · 10/10/2023 00:19

@SomeCatFromJapan

Awesome! Been to Daha a few times! But yes, then, you get it. It is a completely different world where as an expat you get treated very nicely but you are a guest and that much is clear. The way some people are treated is not very fair or right at all. But culturally there is not a principle of equality.

But yes I do think that many left-wing/liberal Western supporters of the Palestinian cause assume that they yearn for the same kind of society that they themselves live in, for a liberal democracy

Totally. It's a kind of projection. I honestly don't know who Palestinians would vote for but they are probably pretty openly indoctrinated to think the current way is the right way, so it's not hard for me to believe they'd keep Hamas.

Hence the large crossover of LGBT/Queer groups with Palestine flags in their bios etc whereas they would presumably get extremely short shrift in Gaza if they were openly gay or trans

This one always leave me open mouthed. I saw one yesterday with a banner: "Queers for Gaza". They'd have a bloody shock fast enough!

I think you said you were no Netanyahu/Likud fan and I agree with you there

We despise him. He has caused so much damage.

Am I right in thinking there are ongoing tensions and unpleasantness in the West Bank? Is it true that Palestinians get removed from their houses to accommodate settlers or is there also more of a back story there?

Sadly yes, that's accurate. And they are escalating. There are forced evictions, handled in ways I personally find bordering on sick. They do quite cruel things like interfere with or even demolish infrastructure or facilities that communities need to live.

This behavior goes against all my values, and basic measures of right and wrong - but the international community isn't doing anything. They can do something, but they're not. They keep denouncing it, but doing nothing. It would be a lot better for everyone if they did.

AhNowTed · 10/10/2023 07:27

quiteoldad · 09/10/2023 23:00

@LemonyTicket
What I would LIKE to happen is for the international community to step in. To use any force necessary to force Israel to go back to the 1967 borders and to force Gaza to hold free and fair democratic elections. Then I would like them to sign a deal, on the lines of the last one and for everyone to get on with living their lives. I would like to see extremist, terrorist leaders out of Gaza. But that is not something I can make happen even if there were elections held. But once that is done, those people can turn that place into a wonderful, safe and prosperous state.

I'd be happy with that, but this time, as they depart, they leave the West bank settlements in tact.

I would be happy with that.

In 2011 Obama called for negotiations along the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps.

This was roundly rejected by Netanyahu.

WaitingfortheTardis · 10/10/2023 07:33

I'm naiive I know, but for me the only thing that matters is that innocent children are caught in the middle of all this. It's so sad. I wish as humans we had evolved beyond all this.

AhNowTed · 10/10/2023 07:54

I should have added, Trump's dog's breakfast of a plan in 2020 was rejected by everyone!

AhNowTed · 10/10/2023 08:06

For anyone interested, there's a fabulous series still available on iPlayer about the troubles in NI, how it began, through the terrible middle and finally an uneasy peace. It's the most unbiased thing on this subject I've seen, with equal voices from both sides of the conflict. It's called

Once upon a time in Northern Ireland

It's truly remarkable.

DownNative · 10/10/2023 08:39

AhNowTed · 10/10/2023 08:06

For anyone interested, there's a fabulous series still available on iPlayer about the troubles in NI, how it began, through the terrible middle and finally an uneasy peace. It's the most unbiased thing on this subject I've seen, with equal voices from both sides of the conflict. It's called

Once upon a time in Northern Ireland

It's truly remarkable.

A lot of context and information is left out in that series.

But Northern Ireland was not anything like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict which is also far, far more complicated than ours was.

Of course, PIRA was connected to Hamas as part of an international terrorist network where they trained together in Libya, collaborated with dictatorship regimes and helped each other in various ways, e.g. PIRA training FARC in Colombia. Colonel Gaddafi supplied PIRA with significant weapons and semtex. Additionally, Gaddafi's Libya supported Palestinian group Hamas, and developed a close relationship with its leader, Khaled Mashal.

This terrorist network included ANC's terrorist wing, MK aka Spear Of The Nation which had Nelson Mandela as one its founders.

It is important for people to be aware of the extent of international terrorist networks because chances are they oppose one or more of them. So supporting any particular one, for example Hamas, would be contradictory and unsustainable under close scrutiny.

BMW6 · 10/10/2023 10:37

Does anyone think this conflict can end without Hamas being entirely destroyed?

And how can that be achieved - won't more radicalised and enraged men (and women) flock to their cause as Hamas members are killed?

For any chance of peace, surely the first step must be the dropping of the wish to eradicate Israel? Both sides have to recognise and acknowledge the right of the other to exist?

Parkingt111 · 10/10/2023 10:46

@LemonyTicket
What I would LIKE to happen is for the international community to step in. To use any force necessary to force Israel to go back to the 1967 borders

I agree with the above
But where would you propose the Jewish settlers who have settled beyond the borders move to?

SizzlestheSausageDog · 10/10/2023 11:09

I find it a bit bizarre how people can simultaneously condemn what happens in Afghanistan and Iran etc with hard-line Islamic governance and the lack of human rights for the population, and also say let's give all of Israel back to Hamas. How will that end well? It will surely just end up as another Afghan/Iran situation with no rights for women or other minorities?

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