To not understand what is going on between Israel & Palestine?

[sweetblue]

I know I sound really naive here and I should know what is going on in the news but I don't really know much and I'd like to educate myself.

Can anyone explain in simple terms what is happening between the two? I have seen a few famous people saying they stand with Israel on social media and getting flamed for it. Also Rishi Sunak tweeting the same today.

Do most support Palestine then? Is the "right" thing to do or is there just two sides to every story here? I'd like to understand what is happening but don't know where to start

Palestine is fighting back after decades of violence and oppression but the Israeli government.

@TwilightSkies Why have Israel been doing this and why are people supporting them?

Read the other massive thread and you'll get lots of relatively short explanations.

Surely it's not unreasonable for Palestine to have had enough and begin fighting back?

@Pollyputhekettleon Ah hadn't seen that. Is that in AIBU?

Yes, it's constantly active, about 900 posts by now.

There is no one rational alive that doesn’t believe that it’s dreadful for both sides. And it’s largely our fault historically (if you’re British). Hamas are terrorists. But it’s shit to live in the Gaza Strip. It is possible to agree with the idea that Palestinians deserve better without being Anti Israel - and in daily life many many Palestinians and Israelis are friends. Much like Protestants and catholics are friends in NI. Israeli hospitals treat palestinians, they all go to school together. But Gaza is grim. If it could have been sorted fairly on both sides it would have been.

Its not. But slaughtering children isn’t a great way to do it.
And sadly Israel is a much stronger force and will ultimately win this, by the death of thousands of innocent Palestinians who had nothing to do with the recent attack.

Israel have opposed the Palestinians for decades, basically turning Gaza into a prison state, not allowing people out or resources in.
They are the superior force and don’t hesitate to flaunt it.

Hamas snapped, and now many innocent Israelis and Palestinians will die.

'Fighting back' here means massacaring hundreds of Israeli civilians.

OP whilst it's not unreasonable to fight against oppression it's never, ever right to think that because you are oppressed because of a political situation, that gives you the right to 'fight back' by killing and abducting innocent civilians.
The politics is deeply complex by the way and goes back to at least the aftermath of WW2. So you need to be prepared to start looking at the history if you really want to understand. Good luck and well done for wanting to make sense of it.

Hamas are terrorists and might be armed by Iran. There is no quick and easy solution

YANBU to not understand it. It’s very complicated, not something that is taught in schools and when it’s spoken about in the media it’s always with the assumption that everyone understands.

I wouldn’t say it’s accurate that most people support Palestine. They are the underdogs here and the people in Gaza will pay a heavy price for what has happened at the hands of the Israeli government. Isreal has the support of the biggest military powers in the world and as you can see now, Palestinian suffering and the crimes committed against them are mostly ignored. It only become news when the Palestinians do something to fight back and it harms people in Israel.

In short, Palestine was never recognised as an independent country. In 1948 the land was divided between Arabs and Jews and the state of Israel was created. Since that time, Israel and Palestine were in a state of perpetual conflict. Israel occupies significant portion of the land earmarked for the two-state solution. The Gasa strip and West Bank become Palestinian settlements which Israel rigidly controls. In 2017, Jerusalem (which is a holy site for Christianity, Islam and Judaism) is announced as Israeli capital by the US which, effectively, strips Palestinians of any rights to the land.
So, in short, Israel illegally captured Palestinian territories and hold Palestinians in what is effectively refugee camps. International community "gifted" Jerusalem to Israelis further feeding the oppressive policies.
Over the years atrocities have been committed by both parties so it is difficult to say who is right and who is wrong at this point.
I don't agree with Hamas violence but I also deeply condemn Israeli policy. And I am saying it as a jew.

The Holocaust happened, and following the provison of Palestine as a Jewish homeland they have ‘acted first’ and also expanded regularly to fit in any and all Jews - ‘expansion’ being the army arriving to evict them with bulldozers ready to demolish their home for new towns to be built for the Jewish population

The resident Palestinian people have been occupied ever since and have to cross armed borders on a daily basis to go to work

Neither side is innocent

YANBU not to understand - I suspect many of those on both sides don't fully understand.
YABU to expect a simple explanation - there isn't one, it's fucking complicated.

Israel believe that they are the natives of that land so have given the right to return for all Jewish people world wide.

The Palestians who were living there before Israel, think they are the natives and don't want to give up their homes and land.

Israel have cornered the Palestians and have them living in an open air prison where they have control of their food, water, electricity and aid.

Even though they have the majority of the land, Israel are running out of space for the Jews that wish to 'return' so slowly they have been taking the little land that the Palestians have left, have been evicting them and giving their homes to people who have recently arrived.

It is illegal, the UN agrees with it being illegal but nothing is happening to combat it.

If someone in Palestine commits a crime, the Israeli government will take the family home and either destroy it or give it to a settler. There are several resources and news articles you can read to verify the facts.

Any condemnation of what Israel are doing is met with claims of antisemitism and people saying that they are scared and that people want to see them eradicated. Even if you only stick to the facts around the illegal evictions.

People do not want to be labelled as racist, or worst antisemitic as it would be career destroying and it is seen as the ultimate form of bigotry. So they don't say anything and hope it all works out in the end.

When there is conflict the people in Israel are protected by the Israeli Defense League and many high tech military machinery. A lot of Israelis have international passports and right to live in other country's so will flee to other countries.

Palestians have no such right and are trapped awaiting there death by superior armed forces.

Over 100,000 IDF reservists have signed up to go into Gaza, there are pictures of there abandoned cars on the side of the road.

Its pretty obvious what's going to happen next.

This is hard to understand - and the fact that a lot of what you read online is basically nothing much more than propaganda doesn't help!

I won't even get into how I'm on a very deep personal level connected to the situation (I am), and I'm deliberately not commenting, but ...

What Hamas has done is just utterly horrifying! Even with the much less publicised reality that Palestinians experience every day: there is just absolutely no justification whatsoever for raping, killing, and abducting civilians. There just isn't!

But, on the other hand: the Israeli government very officially announcing things along the lines of "we're shutting off fuel, water, food, energy, medicine" to 2 million people, 50% of whom are under 18. And distributing automatic rifles to settlers in the West Bank. That's just collective punishment - which is banned under Geneva IV and (rightly so!) considered a war crime. It's just abhorrent, and there isn't any justification for that either!

Again, I've some very personal connections. I just can't stop crying!

The atrocities committed by Hamas are beyond despicable & must be condemned unequivocally - what has been done is pure unadulterated evil.

Israel has a right to defend its citizens, but for Israel to decide that against international law to

take collective action against all Palestinians living in Gaza (most of whom are children) is genocidal.

My heart breaks for Humza Yousaf and his wife. Did everyone see his speech?

I don't give a fig about anyone's views on the scottish constitution at the moment.

It's heartbreaking. His wife is Palestinian and her mum & dad are trapped in Gaza.

It is not accurate to say that ‘Hamas snapped’ - they are armed by Iran, and some commentators think that the recent attacks are due to the US and Saudi Arabia’s ongoing talks. The attacks were certainly well planned and well funded, we are not talking about kids throwing rocks or a few rockets. That doesnt mitigate the suffering of the Palestinian people who continue to suffer of course, but Hamas chose to commit this unjustifiable and horrendous attack.

Don’t consult Mumsnet or any other anonymous internet forum for this kind of thing! If you really want to educate yourself try reading and thinking about any of the vast amount of journalism or academic research that has been written on the subject. All you’ll get on here is a morass of contradictory and half baked opinions from God knows who. Know your sources! The single most important thing when learning about anything - but especially this incredibly complex and thorny issue.

In short, Palestine was never recognised as an independent country. In 1948 the land was divided between Arabs and Jews and the state of Israel was created.

One should go back at least to 1922, when the post-WW1 mandate of Palestine was divided 80% into an Arab state (Transjordan, later Jordan) and 20% (where the Jews lived) - not.

Unfortunately the British gave the throne of Jordan to King Abdullah, the leader of the minority Hashemite tribe instead of the majority local Arab population, ethnically identical to their Arab brethren west of the river Jordan.

Since 1922 there has always been a Palestinian state alongside Israel - Jordan - and it's four times bigger than Israel. Regrettably 80% of the land has never been enough.

I don't remotely disagree!

But also: the government of Israel has officially stated that it was cutting off 2 million people off food, water, energy and medicine - while bombing their living spaces with its vastly superior army, and knowing perfectly well that - unless Egypt opens the Rafah crossing - there is nowhere for the civilian population to escape to. And that's true, too!

This is just such a genuine case of "everyone sucks" - but, as ever, civilians are paying the blood price!

It's just so fucked up that I can't even!

@beachcitygirl no I didn't, but sill go & have a look. As a politician I don't much care for him, but as a fellow human I do.

whatever the rights & wrongs of everything there, NOTHING justifies bundling the elderly, the ill, children or anyone & taking them away. Killing a family of 15, stripping girls & women naked , parading them through the streets, so people can spit on them.

one man on the radio today had been shown footage of his daughter being taken away. He was heartbroken he couldn't protect her.

Saturdays invasion & what has happened since is NOT fighting for occupation it's terrorism.

It's awful. All those innocent people on both sides who will suffer.

Gaza is a small blockaded enclave of stateless people. Israel is an occupying power. The imbalance of power is huge.

It's wrong in all possible ways, and I'm sure many people would agree with that. But I cannot be an apologist for for what Hamas has done.

A bunch of religious and ethnic zealots on two sides won’t accept that matters that happened 75 years ago or even 100s of years ago need to be put in the past. It doesn’t matter which group historically lived in a region. It doesn’t matter who thinks a patch of land is religiously significant. They won’t be adults and recognize that every child born has the right to self-determine religion and thus has the right to be born under a secular government that accepts all people as equals regardless of religion or ethnicity.

there are real issues with the management of Gaza and the West Bank and that is why everyone should have sympathy for private citizens living in Palestine. That still doesn’t justify the actions that have been taken in the last few days. There are modern rules of warfare and those rules are not being followed.