To not understand what is going on between Israel & Palestine?

[sweetblue]

I know I sound really naive here and I should know what is going on in the news but I don't really know much and I'd like to educate myself.

Can anyone explain in simple terms what is happening between the two? I have seen a few famous people saying they stand with Israel on social media and getting flamed for it. Also Rishi Sunak tweeting the same today.

Do most support Palestine then? Is the "right" thing to do or is there just two sides to every story here? I'd like to understand what is happening but don't know where to start

Hamas dismantled and the two states live peacefully alongside each other.

This a really simplistic overview of it all. I found it super helpful when I first watched a few years ago.

You might want to consider that half a million Jewish refugees were ejected from Arab nations in the years following 1948, uprooted themselves, and went to live in Israel.

The partition of India in 1948 displaced 14 million people.

World War 2 created 60 million refugees.

It's a very modern perspective that nobody should ever have to leave the land in which they grew up.

In that context, moving from Cardif to Newcastle really isn't much to ask, is it?

Better to try and live somewhere you can safely bring up your family and try and live peacefully? Why would anyone chose to live in an area constantly in conflict

Israel have opposed the Palestinians for decades, basically turning Gaza into a prison state, not allowing people out or resources in.

I've seen the above view aired a lot over the past few days but don't understand the logic to it.

If Palestine were to be granted recognition as an independent state Israel would be under no obligation to facilitate the movement of people between the states, nor would it have to share / provide resources.

Why do you expect Israelis to do this now?

In a two state situation Israel would be completely entitled to erect an even more potent DMZ around their territory and stop any movement at all if they so wanted.

@sweetblue , asking that question here is not likely to help your understanding. All of the responses I’ve read so far have been extremely biased. Neither side is without fault. Isreal is a democracy and 3 million Arabs live there alongside Jews. The Israelis continue to build settlements which displace Palestinians. The Palestinian people are governed by Hamas who are a proscribed terrorist organisation and don’t in my opinion have what is best for the Palestinian people at their heart instead they are dedicated to the destruction of Israel and irradiation of the Jewish people. There have been repeated attempts to find a solution which have always been rejected by the Palestinians.
Lots of young Palestinians engage in throwing potentially lethal projectiles at the Israeli military who when defending themselves have killed some of these young people. When this happens Hamas pay their families. There are reports of the Israeli military harming Palestinian civilians but I have personally not seen evidence of this.
There is a lot of propaganda, you need to be very mindful of that.

OP, this thread is full of utterly one-sided, evidence-free bullshit, not to put too fine a point on it.

If you want a more accurate view, look at this 40-page thread that's been going on all day today, as recommended upthread: To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other? | Mumsnet

Lots of very knowledgeable posters have added lots of nuance.

This thread, however, is an antisemitic dumpster fire. 🙂

The Jews can go back to the European countries they really come from.

And how has having that attitude worked out for you, so far? Has 75 years of struggle been worthwhile? Four generations condemned to refugee status? Honest question.

Many Israelis are from Iran, Iraq, Syria and Yemen. They can't "go back" there. They were kicked out.
People don't understand that not all Israelis are of European heritage. Not all Israelis are Jewish, either.

In a two state solution Palestine has a sea border and a boarder with Egypt.

Also how do land locked countries look after themselves and trade? Palestine will do the same.

Can’t the Palestinians live in Jordan, Iran, Iraq, Egypt? Lots of surrounding areas are Arab and would have to welcome them in?

My house isn't big enough for me, my son and our two cats. I'd like you to leave your house, no I won't be paying you money for it, and you can just relocate somewhere else because we need that house so off you go, no compensation and I don't care if it means losing your business, your job, family and friends ... 🙄

@sweetblue this may help more than this thread https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/08/israel-hamas-gaza-palestinian-territories?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

The Israelis that have been coming for the past 50 years have been of the white skinned European variety. It is also not the fault or business of Palestinians to make up for Arab nation expelling Jews, you should take it up with those nations.

There are also a lot of Jews still in these countries. Lots of Jewish quarters in Arab countries to this day.

@mushti and @BBno4, yes, it literally IS that much to ask for!!!

I mean, I guess, if you happen to be very, very Catholic, you might believe in the concept of "original sin" and having to do penance or something.

As for the rest of us (which happens to include both Middle Eastern Jews and Palestinians): large-scale displacement of settled populations happens to be "not an option"!

You cannot just ignore "lived reality" in favour of "yeah, well, but, in theory, and ... back in [insert arbitarily chosen date]". Reality does not WORK LIKE THIS!

Israel is real! Palestinians are real!

So sorry.

Are you aware of how Jewish people have CONSTANTLY been displaced and ethnically cleansed??

My great grandma was forced out of her home country to England, and had to change her name and teach herself English and never saw the rest of her family again. She was alive until I was 22.

I'm sure the equivalent of moving to Milton Keynes would have been preferable.

All Jewish people want is one safe place in the world where they can live and not be displaced. But that's not good enough for Hamas, they want it destroyed to take it over.

A terrorist group that wants to “kill all Jews” called Hamas murdered about 900 people in Israel in a terror attack. They have also raped women and abducted at least 100 women and children.

Just because they want that doesn't mean they can have that.

Unless there is empty land or a country that is willing to give it.

@sweetblue
to give some history perspectives this may help

The conflict between Israel and Palestine is a long-standing and complex issue with deep historical, political, and cultural roots. It has its origins in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, with the Zionist movement seeking to establish a Jewish homeland in what was then Ottoman-controlled Palestine. Over the years, tensions have escalated and subsided, leading to multiple wars, diplomatic efforts, and peace processes. To fully grasp the situation, it's essential to consider some key aspects:
Historical Context:

• The conflict is deeply rooted in historical events, including the displacement of Palestinian Arabs during the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, which Palestinians refer to as the Nakba (catastrophe).
• The Six-Day War in 1967 resulted in Israel's occupation of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem, which has been a central issue in the conflict.

Territorial Disputes:

• One of the core issues is the question of territory, with both Israelis and Palestinians asserting claims to the same land.
• Palestinians seek an independent state in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem, with borders based on pre-1967 lines.
• Israel, while accepting the idea of a Palestinian state, has security concerns and disputes over borders.

Security Concerns:

• Israel cites security concerns, including rocket attacks from Gaza and terrorist activities, as reasons for maintaining a military presence in certain areas.
• Palestinians argue that the Israeli security measures, such as checkpoints and barriers, restrict their freedom of movement and exacerbate the conflict.

Settlements:

• Israeli settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem are a contentious issue. Many consider them illegal under international law, while Israel disputes this interpretation.
• The expansion of settlements has been a major obstacle to peace negotiations.

Refugee Issue:

• The question of Palestinian refugees and their right to return to their ancestral homes remains a central issue.
• Palestinians assert the right of return, while Israel opposes it, fearing demographic changes.

International Involvement:

• The international community, including the United Nations, has been involved in various peace efforts and has passed resolutions calling for a two-state solution.
• Peace initiatives, such as the Oslo Accords and the Camp David Summit, have aimed to resolve the conflict but have faced challenges in implementation.

Humanitarian Concerns:

• The conflict has led to significant humanitarian issues, including displacement, restrictions on movement, and economic hardship for Palestinians.
• Human rights organizations have raised concerns about the impact on civilians, including children.

Public Opinion:

• Public opinion on the conflict varies widely, both internationally and within Israel and Palestine.
• Many individuals and groups advocate for a peaceful resolution and support initiatives aimed at coexistence.

Understanding the Israel-Palestine conflict requires a nuanced examination of these factors and a recognition of the perspectives and experiences of both Israelis and Palestinians. It is a complex issue with no easy solutions, and resolving it continues to be a significant challenge for the international community.

Basically there are no sides to support. Innocent civilians are being slaughtered and the same people are funding both sides.

The Israeli defence forces are the best equipped and trained in the world. Mossad is one of the best intelligence agencies in the world with cutting edge surveillance.... yet they were taken by surprise.

Amazingly 100s of Hamas militants lay siege at Israel and sent 1000s of rockets into Israel how they managed to gather / build them without Mossad knowing is quite a mystery. They even managed to land in Israel using hand gliders.

The Palestinians and Jewish civilians are being slaughtered while the elites literally sit in their Ivory towers, sipping coffee whilst watching their games unfold

All by design... stop listening to the bbc

The Jewish population of Arab nations in 1948 was about 800,000.

In 2019, according to Wikipedia, at any rate, it was 12,700.

There are lots of Jewish quarters in Arab countries. But no Jews in those Jewish quarters.

What is siginficant is that the Jewish refugees moved, made new homes, and got on with life. The Palestinians haven't, through their own desires and the cynical exploitation of the Arab nations. Of course they didn't and don't have to move on. But it is a choice.

All these wide eyed innocent questions you are asking can be found by using reliable websites on Google.

You want to educate yourself and thought Mumsnet?

This isn't Palestinians "fighting back", this is a terrorist organisation (hated by many Palestinians) engaging in mindless thuggery.

You need to check out current demographics. Increasingly, Israelis are Mizrahi.
Also, 18% are Arab Israelis.