To not understand what is going on between Israel & Palestine?

[sweetblue]

I know I sound really naive here and I should know what is going on in the news but I don't really know much and I'd like to educate myself.

Can anyone explain in simple terms what is happening between the two? I have seen a few famous people saying they stand with Israel on social media and getting flamed for it. Also Rishi Sunak tweeting the same today.

Do most support Palestine then? Is the "right" thing to do or is there just two sides to every story here? I'd like to understand what is happening but don't know where to start

And general peace to eventually lead to a merging it them.

Israel have now cut off water gas food and electricity to the most densely populated open prison in the world - that’s a war crime and typical of their treatment of the Palestinians. They stole their land and bulldozed their homes and expect to keep them annexed and the global community allows it - the situation is a global fuck up.

Thank you for posting this! I too have no real idea...

Gaza is a small blockaded enclave of stateless people. Israel is an occupying power. The imbalance of power is huge.

It's wrong in all possible ways, and I'm sure many people would agree with that. But I cannot be an apologist for for what Hamas has done.

This ⬆

Hamas are like the IRA was - they want war, so that they can gain power - and they don't care who suffered. They will sacrifice their own people just as quickly as they will kill Israelis. They don't care. Civilians of any type are just so many pieces of expendable meat to them, or useful hostages.

There were peace talks about to get underway. Hopefully they would have found a way of protecting people from both nations. Hamas didn't want that. The last thing they wanted was a peaceful end to decades of conflict. I imagine they are hoping to draw other Arab nations into the conflict

My heart aches for the civilians on both sides. There are people in Palestine who have known nothing but war and oppression all of their lives. The mental health problems among children in particular are massive. This is a brutal conflict - absolutely hideous. And stuck in the middle of it are decent, ordinary people who just want to live in peace and give their children the chance of a good life without having to risk shellfire every time they leave the house.

it's not about fighting back. It's not about Hamas wanting a share of land and equality. They want to destroy Israel and wipe out the Jewish race. Authoritarian dictatorship and ethnic cleansing. Succeeding where the Nazis failed. Sound familiar?

What a fucking mess.

Hell no and there is no easy "right" or "wrong" thing to do in this situation, it is more complex than that. But I sure as shit aren't supporting people who are keeping children hostage in cages. In reality they are probably very similar to each other.

Mumsnetters please try and read abit about Israel before condemning them. We have not occupied Gaza since 2005 we left. Hamas rule it and its 12 mile border with Eygpt. Why do you believe we owe a terrorist organisation food and water?? It is not a prison. They are not surrounded by Israel as some people believe. This is a hate as old as time Hamas want to finish the job the Nazis tried to do. I am horrified that some posters believe we deserve to murdered for just being Jews. We are bombed daily we retaliate but for a lot of posters we are blamed for protecting our people. Only Jews are condemned in this way. No other Country is judged as much as Israel. Hamas want us dead and you are criticising Israel for retaliating.

I fear the OP is being faux naive.

There were a number of posters - both on this thread and a zapped one - who wrote as if they thought Hamas were justified in their actions. If they did condemn them it was always with a "but". Hamas does not act for the Palestinian people and using whatever wrongs the IDF have done against the Palestinian people as justification for Hamas' actions does not help their cause.

Why aren't people putting pressure on Egypt to open their border and let food/water/medicines in, and women/children out?

How can Israel 'close the borders' when they are not the only country on the border of Gaza?

This is the summary from amnesty international

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/

Some people prefer to have a person relay the main points. Some websites may have too much heavy reading.

From what I remember, Egypt isn't allowed to.

Considering an Egyptian opened fire on some Israeli tourists at the weekend I can see why.

Hamas is a violent terrorist organisation that targets civilians.

Hamas controls Gaza.

Israel withdrew from Gaza at considerable (political) cost and internal opposition in 2005 - even forcibly removing Jewish settlers/settlements.

Not all Palestinians support Hamas.

Surrounding bad faith Islamic countries like Iran use Gaza and Hamas to further their nefarious intentions towards Israel. It suits them to keep arming and fostering anger rather than help the Palestinian people.

Agree….surely the sensible,humanitarian people,from both sides should be able to get involved and help everyone 🤷‍♀️Am finding this really hard to comprehend TBH !

@sweetblue years and years and YEARS ago Palestine welcomed jewish refugees with open arms. They in return bit the hand that fed them and have been wanting to take their land and basically strip them of their identity. Palestine is an open air prison (thanks to Israel). They are not allowed to work, travel or have any basic human rights. Their every move is controlled. Please don't depend on mainstream media to give you the information you need. You can not continuously poke a bear and then act surprised when they retaliate.

Yes.

*slight correction - the 2014 piece I linked to in my comment above is written by a half Israeli-half British Londoner.

Why does NOONE get this?

There is NO SUCH THING as "support Israel" (I mean, I guess there is, if you mean "the state of Israel" - who, until the day before yesterday and kind of still, was in the midst of a deep crisis of democracy because [long story ... go read it up; story of religion vs secularism, right vs left, corruption, executive/legislative/judicial branch ... I mean it: go READ UP on it - if you happen to be at all into political science: 10/10, totally do recommend!). Beyond that: there are just under 10m people in Israel - some 20-25% of whom are actually ethnically Palestinian! They are "people, just like you and me", spanning the whole spectrum in terms of political opinions and, for the most part, just primarily interested in raising their families in relative peace and prosperity above all else!

There is also NO SUCH THING as "Palestine" either. "Palestine" is not even a state recognised by the UN (though, to be fair, that one is mostly on the permanent members of the UN security council - specifically: the US! The general assembly overwhelmingly recognises a state of "Palestine"!). Having said that: even if there WERE such a thing: there is no such thing as "Palestine"! There is Gaza, rules by a Hamas government since 2007, and the West Bank (this is REALLY complicated, but - in a nutshell): where Palestinians are supposedly in charge they are ruled by the Palestinian Authority in Ramallah. [Again, DO go and read up on it!]. Once more, there are just millions of ordinary people primarily interested in raising their families in relative peace and prosperity above all else!

And, make no mistake! When I say "ordinary people", I mean: you will find lovely, Israeli mums of three advocating for shutting off water to Gaza, letting literal babies die, without a 2nd thought. And teens in Nablus, West Bank, who would state their personal priorities as "1. Become famous of TikTok, 2. eradicate Tel Aviv".

This sounds horrifying. Because it is! But I genuinely don[t think either are "bad" people. Just scared people. People brought up since birth to each believe the other party wants them, personally, dead! (Which, ironically, I have yet to meet any Israeli or Palestinian who personally wanted someone specific dead on the other side - politicians excluded!).

That[s why I cry so much! Just people! Just wanting a life!

@HeidiInTheBigCity, I can’t write more but agree with your comments and advice to read up on it all. Again as said in my comment above, I think watching this is a good start for those interested.

*and reading this https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/lliana-bird/why-im-proisraeli-and-pro-palestinian_b_5592220.html

@sweetblue or anyone else genuinely trying to understand more: I won't comment on my personal views of the actual situation. But here are a few suggestions on how to navigate trying to figure it out...

1. Understand that this is inherently a debate which is biased and there isn't going to be a "single one-stop-shop explainer" page without at least a little bit of a lean. Your goal is to read multiple sets of biased info and try to make sure you're balancing them, rather than read a single "neutral" source.

2. In light of this be more aware of sources than usual - figure out the likely bias of the paper/blog/organisation and have that in mind as you read. Bias isn't bad! These are deeply meaningful questions for the people writing and they have a point of view. Just be aware of it.

3. The language used is also biased. Individual words aren't neutral and may have strong emotional ties to one side or another: for example terrorist, homeland, genocide, Naqba, Zionist, Holocaust, anti-Semite, even Palestine and Israel as terms themselves. As you read more sources take note of which "sides" use some words more often, and don't always take the first meaning at face value.

4. Accept that it will take a lot of time just to get to grips with the basic historical facts, before you even start trying to grapple with the moral issues. Each side calls the various wars by different names, start the story in different places (at any convenient point ranging from 1948 to before the birth of Christ), name the places differently etc. Take some time to build a historical factbase.

5. In terms of the wider conflict/tension between the two groups, accept that there is not really a clear single answer of "who is the bad guy". It depends on the moral framework you are using. And keep in mind that Palestine != Hamas, Israel != Netanyahu, etc. Take some time to put together a moral factbase - noting down the moral arguments used by each side to support their proposed solution/story/framing. At this point you can ask friends, read social media posts etc as well as these perspectives are often a lot more value judgments than history lessons!

6. At this point you will probably naturally start to have your own views on it based on your own personal moral code. But at least you will understand the POV of others.

7. Even if you generally favour a side, be aware that no side is perfect in this. Some of the things people have done have been horrible. It's a war situation. It's hard to imagine for those of us in Milton Keynes and Cardiff. You can acknowledge atrocities like the killings this weekend and other specific incidents. For some people, specific incidents might tip the balance for them.

8. Don't even bother trying to come up with a solution. Trust me, whatever you come up with has probably have been tried by someone. There isn't a solution that gives everyone what they want. This is why this is (for you) fundamentally an exercise in (a) making hard moral decisions where you actually have to make a choice, and (b) making the respectful effort to properly understand a complex topic instead of shitposting on social media about it.

Who exactly isn't allowing Gaza's immediate neighbour, Egypt, to allow refugees out and food/water/medicines in?

Why has Egypt done nothing at all for decades to ease the plight of the Palestinians?