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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not understand what is going on between Israel & Palestine?

326 replies

sweetblue · 09/10/2023 18:44

I know I sound really naive here and I should know what is going on in the news but I don't really know much and I'd like to educate myself.

Can anyone explain in simple terms what is happening between the two? I have seen a few famous people saying they stand with Israel on social media and getting flamed for it. Also Rishi Sunak tweeting the same today.

Do most support Palestine then? Is the "right" thing to do or is there just two sides to every story here? I'd like to understand what is happening but don't know where to start

OP posts:
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lassiedog · 09/10/2023 20:34

There isn't a simple explanation OP and you can completely regard anyone who opens their post with, 'In short...'

There is no 'short' or brief explanation for a conflict that can be traced back to biblical times. As a PP has said, you won't get straight informed answers on Mumsnet but you will get a lot of people repeating 'something they saw on Facebook'.

It's also become sadly politicised so that if you're a Labour supporter you're 'meant' to support Palestine and the opposite for Tories.

If you want to get an insight into the depth of hatred and the religious ideology behind it, 'Son of Hamas' by Mosab Hassan Yousef is a very good book. He is the son of one of the then top commanders in Hamas. Horrifying and fascinating book.

ChocolateCakeOverspill · 09/10/2023 20:35

I haven’t read this thread but in one which got zapped yesterday there was a brilliant, very balanced account of the full history (back to the Romans) of the area.

I don’t know the posters name but hopefully they’ve posted on here or the other thread (which I haven’t seen)

Izzy54321 · 09/10/2023 20:35

This is a terrorist attack on Israel. Hamas are terrorists.
Women raped and murdered in the name of Hamas. Who knows where the children are that have been kidnapped. If you believe that Palestinians are fighting back you couldn’t be more wrong. This is Hamas not your everyday Palestinians who freely travel between Israel and Palestine for work, visiting friends and also go to hospital appointments. Israel are not the evil suppressors everyone believes they are. Palestinians have a boarder with Egypt too they also have freedom to travel there. Israel haven’t trapped them in Palestine Hamas have done that no one else. I’m so angry that I am reading that Israel deserves this??? Really because those that have been killed, raped and kidnapped deserve this?? Those children are not soldiers Those women who were dancing are not soldiers. I’m so angry that we are still being hated after thousands of years. We are still being murdered and raped and people believe we deserve it. Israel is our home we returned home after world war 2 after originally being run out of our land by people who hated us as much then as they do now.

Teddleshon · 09/10/2023 20:41

@Izzy54321 I’m not Jewish but I’m so sickened, upset and angry that so many seem to be supporting Hamas. Hamas are terrorists whose avowed aim is to kill all Jews. It is the same as supporting jihadists.

Why are people on the side of murderous thugs who don’t believe in equal rights for women, gay people or Jews. How can any county negotiate with a group whose stated aim is to obliterate them.

Namddf · 09/10/2023 20:41

Miriam101 · 09/10/2023 19:08

Don’t consult Mumsnet or any other anonymous internet forum for this kind of thing! If you really want to educate yourself try reading and thinking about any of the vast amount of journalism or academic research that has been written on the subject. All you’ll get on here is a morass of contradictory and half baked opinions from God knows who. Know your sources! The single most important thing when learning about anything - but especially this incredibly complex and thorny issue.

Ideally OP would do this, but I’d like to point out

a) Not everyone has the academic intelligence or experience to understand academic research
b) The Israeli-Palestine conflict is incredibly complex and evolving
c) It is almost impossible to find unbiased information on it, even from academic sources and journalism

OP, there are some good potted histories on this thread which accurately describe the basics. It is a very emotionally charged situation on both sides so you have to ignore anything that’s clearly opinion.

Tortoise media is quite good at explaining things if you want to look online and it seems quite unbiased to me.

Heelenahandbasket · 09/10/2023 20:43

BBno4 · 09/10/2023 20:27

The Israelis that have been coming for the past 50 years have been of the white skinned European variety. It is also not the fault or business of Palestinians to make up for Arab nation expelling Jews, you should take it up with those nations.

There are also a lot of Jews still in these countries. Lots of Jewish quarters in Arab countries to this day.

That’s not true. There are very few Jews left in any Arab countries. Even those that didn’t expel them, Jews are not safe in Arab countries. Many “Palestinians” also moved to the area from other countries in the region, particularly Jordan. The idea that there was some Palestinian state invaded by the bad Jews is just not true.

Miriam101 · 09/10/2023 20:46

@Namddf Fair point re academic research but I still think asking for explanations here is the absolute worst way to educate oneself on this topic.

HelpMebeok · 09/10/2023 20:46

You can support Palestinians without supporting Hamas

Freepo · 09/10/2023 20:46

Heelenahandbasket · 09/10/2023 20:43

That’s not true. There are very few Jews left in any Arab countries. Even those that didn’t expel them, Jews are not safe in Arab countries. Many “Palestinians” also moved to the area from other countries in the region, particularly Jordan. The idea that there was some Palestinian state invaded by the bad Jews is just not true.

Why have you put “Palestinians” in inverted commas?

Is it to try to minimise the human cost of the displacement which was required to found a Jewish majority state of Israel in 1948 by denying them their identity?

HeidiInTheBigCity · 09/10/2023 20:47

@Poudretteite, more than aware!

But they were displaced by Europeans (come on, be real!), not by some peansant in Huwwara village!

And "justice" for crimes indescribable (and they are!) is not "let us just pass on the buck to the next poor sucker who is NOT US!"

For the record: I am writing this as distraction! Because, tonight, I am worried sick about Israeli friends that I have not yet heard from. I do not have personal friends in the Gaza strip. I VERY MUCH do have not only friends but family in the West Bank (that I HAVE heard from - they are all alive, FOR NOW!)

For those of us who have been involved in the peace movement (and I have been, for some 20 years, at this point!), this is NOT about "who did what to whom anno 1589?" but about "how can we make it work, given that reality happened, and given the assumption that we believe in human rights for all?"

On that note - and (for people who are "new" to the situation: you will NOT get it) - I am going to go "full-on controversial": I personally favour a one state solution. But then, I very much AM an atheist and leftie and therefore primed to believe "people should just get over religion and nationalism". I am fully aware "people" do not, actually, work like this!

To finish off a long post - just in case it was not clear enough: Hamas are unspeakable horrors, and, yes!, terrorists! But the state (!) of Israel is also committing war crimes!

Willyoujustbequiet · 09/10/2023 20:53

No most people don't support terrorism and the barbaric actions of Hamas. What sort of monsters behead babies?

Neither is it right for innocent civilians in Gaza to go without food and water. Hamas has killed its own people. They don't care.

Israel has a right to exist and Hamas must accept that. But Palestinians also have a right to a land of their own. I have no clue what the solution is but as usual women and children suffer at the hands of men.

ketchup07070 · 09/10/2023 20:54

@Freepo Some people always insist on referring to Palestinians as 'Arabs' as well, I think. It is an interesting erasure of language and identity.

WillowCraft · 09/10/2023 20:55

Freepo · 09/10/2023 20:46

Why have you put “Palestinians” in inverted commas?

Is it to try to minimise the human cost of the displacement which was required to found a Jewish majority state of Israel in 1948 by denying them their identity?

Presumably because the poster is saying that they weren't actually from Palestine.

yazoolove · 09/10/2023 21:01

endtimes2bsure · 09/10/2023 20:32

Basically there are no sides to support. Innocent civilians are being slaughtered and the same people are funding both sides.

The Israeli defence forces are the best equipped and trained in the world. Mossad is one of the best intelligence agencies in the world with cutting edge surveillance.... yet they were taken by surprise.

Amazingly 100s of Hamas militants lay siege at Israel and sent 1000s of rockets into Israel how they managed to gather / build them without Mossad knowing is quite a mystery. They even managed to land in Israel using hand gliders.

The Palestinians and Jewish civilians are being slaughtered while the elites literally sit in their Ivory towers, sipping coffee whilst watching their games unfold

All by design... stop listening to the bbc

Hamas literally works for anyone BUT Palestine.

miniegg3 · 09/10/2023 21:04

AutumnWellyBootsandScarf · 09/10/2023 19:14

@beachcitygirl no I didn't, but sill go & have a look. As a politician I don't much care for him, but as a fellow human I do.

whatever the rights & wrongs of everything there, NOTHING justifies bundling the elderly, the ill, children or anyone & taking them away. Killing a family of 15, stripping girls & women naked , parading them through the streets, so people can spit on them.

one man on the radio today had been shown footage of his daughter being taken away. He was heartbroken he couldn't protect her.

Saturdays invasion & what has happened since is NOT fighting for occupation it's terrorism.

Absolutely, I saw the footage of that girl being taken and it's heartbreaking.
What part of murdering women and children hiding is fighting for their country? Or mass killings of young people enjoying a festival? Many weren't even israeli. There's lots of footage and they are acting like animals

HeidiInTheBigCity · 09/10/2023 21:06

What is is good for? - ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

Seriously, Fck Hamas terrorists! Fck the ultra-right-wing Netanyahu government!

Just ... can we, like, try not to rape, abduct, kill, or bomb innocent civilians?

DeeCee77 · 09/10/2023 21:16

Teddleshon · 09/10/2023 20:41

@Izzy54321 I’m not Jewish but I’m so sickened, upset and angry that so many seem to be supporting Hamas. Hamas are terrorists whose avowed aim is to kill all Jews. It is the same as supporting jihadists.

Why are people on the side of murderous thugs who don’t believe in equal rights for women, gay people or Jews. How can any county negotiate with a group whose stated aim is to obliterate them.

Hamas has just systematically murdered hundreds of innocent civilians. I haven't see anyone supporting them bar those lunatics in the news waving Palestinian flags. 99% of the public are outraged at this weekend's massacre.

I think you are confusing those who are looking at the overall conflict by commenting on Palestinian suffering as somehow supporting Hamas.

As grotesque as the massacre was we can't just comment on that as this conflict has been going on for years.

Statice · 09/10/2023 21:16

Between 1878 - when the area which approximated what later became Israel, West Bank and Gaza and then under Ottoman Empire rule - and 1947 (area came under British Mandate* in 1920) - through waves of Jewish immigration to the area the Jewish population grew significantly from around 20-30,000 in 1878 to 630,000 by 1947. (Always been a Jewish population since biblical Old Testament times, albeit fairly small from 70AD when Jewish people were expelled by Roman Empire. And Jerusalem remained the spiritual home of the Jewish faith since Old Testament times).

Correspondingly, the Muslim Arab population was 386,000 in1878 and 1,324,000 by 1947. Sources show the Muslim Arab leaders seeing themselves as the larger population were not willing to agree to dividing the land into two states wrongly believing they could dominate and create an Arab state across the whole land when the British left.

*During the First World War (1914–1918), an Arab uprising against Ottoman rule and the British Empire's Egyptian Expeditionary Force drove the Ottoman Turks out of the Levant.[3] The United Kingdom had agreed in the McMahon–Hussein Correspondencethat it would honour Arab independence if the Arabs revolted against the Ottoman Turks, but in the end, the United Kingdom and France divided the area under the Sykes–Picot Agreement — an act of betrayal in the eyes of the Arabs. Further complicating the issue was the Balfour Declaration of 1917, in which Britain promised its support for the establishment of a Jewish "national home" in Palestine.

In 1938 the British Peel committee (established after serious clashes between Arabs and Jews broke out in 1936 and were to last three years) suggested the Jewish population should gain statehood in 20 percent of the territory of Palestine but the Muslim Arab leaders refused to agree. The 1948 United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine proposed a more even split but half of the Jewish portion was the mostly inhabitable Negev desert in the south. UNSCOP (the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine] arrived in Palestine in June 1947. While the Jewish Agency and the Jewish National Council cooperated with UNSCOP in its deliberations, the Arab Higher Committee charged UNSCOP with being pro-Zionist, and decided to boycott it

In 1947 the UN General Assembly voted on the partition plan of the land under the then British mandate of Palestine (and Transjordan). This was adopted by 33 votes to 13 with 10 abstentions. The Jewish population accepted the UN plan for the establishment of two states. The Arabs living there rejected it and with the surrounding Arab countries launched a war against the newly founded Jewish state seeking its annihilation. They lost. Israel seized the opportunity to occupy a good part of the territory allotted to the Arab state during this war. Jordan and Egypt also occupied until the 1960s land meant for the 1947 Arab state.

I am unable currently to go into all the subsequent events, wars, intifadas, the v negative role of the terrorist group Hamas last 20 years or so and problematic Israeli settlements, but it’s a complex, sad situation.

However, this video gives an imo fair overview of the history and issues surrounding the Israeli–Palestinian conflict up to the present day.

And I find the below 2014 piece written by a young Israeli woman insightful and worth reading in full. She points out

“Israelis and Palestinians both have the right to exist. We must all accept that. The past is gone, the people, the present is now. Israelis (especially those in the Southern communities) have the right to live without fear of constant rocket attacks. The Palestinians have the right to live in security and socio-economic prosperity in their own state without fear of Israeli strikes.”.

It’s tragic this still hasn’t been achieved and the cycle of violence continues. The appalling terror attacks by Hamas on civilians on Saturday should be thoroughly condemned.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/lliana-bird/why-im-proisraeli-and-pro-palestinian_b_5592220.html

DdraigGoch · 09/10/2023 21:16

mushti · 09/10/2023 20:23

The Jews can go back to the European countries they really come from.

And how has having that attitude worked out for you, so far? Has 75 years of struggle been worthwhile? Four generations condemned to refugee status? Honest question.

Edited

More than 75 years, this goes back millennia. Jewish people were expelled from Rome in the year 19, tens of thousands were killed in the Rhineland in 1298, then there were several pogroms in places like Odesa.

Didshejustsaythatoutloud · 09/10/2023 21:18

While it is horrific what Hammas have done in Israel recently. Heartbreaking to watch those young people at music festival, in particular the young woman Noa. It should be noted that Israeli govnt has demolished and moved in its people into land held by Palestinians, often brutally abusing them for decades. Right wing Israeli govt have behaved despicably of late, eg storming a mosque during Ramadan.
Hammas are terrorists but Israel are no better

Iwasafool · 09/10/2023 21:19

Libertass · 09/10/2023 19:37

Israel was created by the UN after the horrors of the Second World War as a homeland for Jewish people. Palestinians, who are Arab Muslim people, believed that the land used for the creation of the new country was rightfully theirs. Israel & Palestine have been fighting, on & off, over that land ever since.

Palestinians do not have an independent, internationally recognised country to call their own. The areas they occupy, one of which is called Gaza, is poor & underdeveloped. It has a form of self government and is home to a paramilitary organisation called Hamas, who are either freedom fighters or terrorists according your POV, rather like the IRA were in Ireland.

Israel is strongly supported by its main ally, the United States. It is a prosperous democracy with a standard of living equivalent to many European countries. It also has very powerful, modern, well equipped armed forces and nuclear weapons. Palestine is mainly supported by Arab countries sympathetic to its cause, including Egypt & Iran.

In Western countries, public support for Israel or Palestine tends to be partisan. Generally, people on the political left, who see the world in terms of ‘oppressor’ & ‘victim’ support Palestine & people on the right who believe in democracy & free markets tend to support Israel.

Israel was actually created by a campaign of terror. British soldiers being some of the victims. As we judge and condemn the violence of Hamas we should consider that they learned that violence got Irgun/Haganah what they wanted.

TheHouseonHauntedHill · 09/10/2023 21:19

"fighting back" by killing grannies and people's just dancing at a festival?

Op the usual stance is support Palestine, understand that hammas are also oppressing Palestine

TheHouseonHauntedHill · 09/10/2023 21:19

*but support isreal.

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