To not understand what is going on between Israel & Palestine?

[sweetblue]

I know I sound really naive here and I should know what is going on in the news but I don't really know much and I'd like to educate myself.

Can anyone explain in simple terms what is happening between the two? I have seen a few famous people saying they stand with Israel on social media and getting flamed for it. Also Rishi Sunak tweeting the same today.

Do most support Palestine then? Is the "right" thing to do or is there just two sides to every story here? I'd like to understand what is happening but don't know where to start

It’s like we learned fuck all from WWII. These people need stopping in their tracks. Any sniff of antisemitism needs to be rooted out and halted.

Hamas are so focused on the desire for Jihad they use school children as human shields. I’d like to see anyone in the UK who supports Hamas treated as what they are, a supporter of terrorists. That can start with Corbyn who still refuses to condemn the situation (and to think people wanted him as our PM)

Scary how a nobody's post gets deleted because of saying the truth!

Imagine what's it's like for influential people trying to speak their mind...

This isn't just about Israel and Palestine, this is the future!

Good God

You need to say that to keep your sanity I'm sure. Saying how it really is out loud will stop you from sleeping at night...

My simple summary is

centuries of beef between them

currently Isreal is in the stronger position and are / have been shitting over Palestine

Hamas launched a ‘suprise’ attack last weekend

Isreal have lost their shit and are now decimating Palestine

@Mary8417 Are you saying that Hamas do not want to drive the Jews out of the Middle East?

They were kind of artificially planted there though. Just like any occupying nation. Of course peolpe who lost their land as a result would not be happy, just like you would not be happy living under Nazi had they won the war and moved into your house.

Good 10 min summary of history of the area.

@Statice Yup, he's excellent on the Middle East.

@Wouldyouguess are you familiar with the history of the Jewish presence in what is now Israel?

To bring the Nazis into it in this context is sickening.

People, literally NONE of this is particularly hard!

There is such a thing as "the right side to be on" here - but it's neither psychopathic terrorists nor psychopathic politicians!

The "right side to be on" is that of civilians, of children! If Kfar Azza, in Gaza City, the people who suffer, the people who bleed, and die - while morons are arguing about why why their personal preferred brand of genocidal psychopath is actually not that bad after all!

Hamas committed war crimes when it attacked civilians in Southern Israel. No debate!

Israel, in its quest for retribution, is committing war crimes (which may be about to get much worse as the evacuation period runs out) as I'm typing this! Also no debate!

I'm not ready to argue with people over "but my war criminals have a good reason - they are [insert X reason for why it's all about protecting "their people" - you know: the men, women, and children that died and are dying!]!

If you feel compelled to justify the actions of war criminals: consider getting off the Internet and into therapy, perhaps!

... EDIT: no worries, someone will be along to explain why "but the others started it first" and "but their side is just fighting for peace". Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity!

@Mary8417 Do you have the same level of empathy for the 6 million Jews who were murdered by actual Nazis during the holocaust? They were obviously expelled from countries they had lived in for generations and had their land, homes and possessions stolen.

Palestinians were forcibly removed from their land and squashed on a tiny plot of land and treated like criminals and prisoners in ghettos (another interesting parallel). I realise it's ironic, but what the Israeli army is now doing is genocide. This is sickening.

Since the Islamic conquest the Jews were second class citizens, dhimmis, under Arab rule. They were legally discriminated against and persecuted for centuries. That's not a beef. It's imperialism and oppression of a native minority.

Hamsa are a terrorist organisation. Do you actually not know because you managed to pick a side very quickly.

No they were not artificially planted there. Jews always lived there, for centuries as dhimmis under Islamic rule. Yellow stars and all. They are not occupiers, they were there before Islam existed. That's why they wanted their own state, in which they would never again be legally, systematically, treated as inferior, discriminated again and persecuted because of their religion. The Arabs refused to let them have that. Other Jews immigrated there, perfectly legally.

How about: Palestinians currently live on this land! Israelis currently live on this land! Neither are going to go away by themselves. "Making" them is called "population transfer" - and that is actually (and rightly so!) considered a war crime!?

How about: we acknowledge this? We also acknowledge, that both Israelis and Palestinians have historically been victimised and carry a lot of collective trauma as a result?

How about: we try and find ways how we can stop the spiralling violence, offer futures for all civilians and invest in making them heal, so that what is already generational trauma can, finally, come to an end and people who share a land get a fighting chance to learn how to co-exist?

And how about "we pursue their psychopathic leaders in international court rather than trying to bomb our way to peace"?

Half of my family is Palestinian! But several of my friends are Israeli! I will not fall victim to the psychopathic, jingoistic propaganda. I will not "pick sides" because a choice between the Israeli state and Hamas is just a question of "which particular flavour of genocidal psychopath would you like?"

I would like NONE please! I would like to live in a world where both my family and my friends get to bring up their children in safety and, hopefully, relative prosperity! I would like to live in a world where - when I am old - the orphans made during this horrible, horrible week work together - Israeli and Palestinian - to resolve the looming crisis that is actually threatening to exterminate us all: global warming!

Ive read, so don't know if it is true, that a convert has a right of return, that the spouse of a Jew has the right of return. Their ancestors weren't there before Islam. If it is true I wonder how many Israelis have less historical claim to the land than Palestinians who have been there for generations.

It is a complicated situation. I can't see how it can be resolved.

The who started thing is just impossible isn't it, where do we draw the line, where do we say this is OK anything past this is wrong.

BBC news showing live missiles landing on Gaza City. They want to eliminate Hamas but how can they do that without killing the innocent?

You cannot!

And, yes, someone is going to be along in a second to claim "but my genocidal psychopaths are in the right - because Hamas are using civilians as human shields" (which is, partially, true - but also, to a large part, irrelevant / untrue: you cannot just cram 2.2 million people into a space much smaller and densely populated than London and then expect them to sort themselves out in terms of separating militants from civilians - that is just not logistically possible!)

Someone else will be along, also shortly, to point out that the very reason why Gaza even is so densely populated is the 1948 war and the brutal displacement of civilians, and how that makes Israel a fascist state from the very get go! (They are also not wrong in terms of "demographic facts", and I am not going to comment on the ideological aspect - because it is just not my place to!).

You CANNOT "eliminate Hamas" without becoming a war criminal in your own right - thus losing any legitimacy and supposed moral high ground you laid claim to. Conversely: you CANNOT eliminate "the occupation" either, without doing the same!

And even if either were possible (again: they are NOT!): just how do you think you are going to manage the aftermath without turning into something you cannot look at in the mirror after you get up in the morning without puking your guts out at the very sight at yourself?

YOU CANNOT!

Realistically speaking: the relative chances of "military victory" are pretty skewed in favour of the Israeli state! But is "breeding another generation of people who will do what happened last weekend, given half a chance", really worth it? Is it REALLY?

There were Prussian/German citizens historically living on Polish territory since XXIII century I believe- should that have been be a green light for the Nazi invasion of Poland in 1939 according to you, and subsequent murder millions of Poles and Jews, just because many Germans believed this was their land and that they had the right to it?

They were also Jewish people living on the current terrirory of Israel, but not in the quantities that are currently residing. Then boom, state of Israel is created, poeple coming, and Palestinians who lived there, rightfully, owned homes, for centuries are being to be removed en masse, enclosed in ghetto, treated like animals constantly harrassed by the soldiers in the street, not able to leave, travel or breathe, and their kids are shot on the streets by the army (50+last year, 40+ the previous). The want for one party to have their own state should trump the right of the other side to live.

The Rest Is Politics have dropped another emergency podcast this evening. Haven’t listened to it yet myself but I’m sure it might help those wanting to gain more understanding of events.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind springs to mind.

A lot of very fair points, but I want to ask you what you think is the alternative? It's the equivalent of having Isis in Wales - except every other country surrounding you is hostile as well. And they just killed more of your own civilians, per capita, than any terrorist attack in history, and they did it in the most stomach-churningly brutal way possible. Their entire stated purpose is to eliminate your country and people, and polls show they have a majority of support among their general population.

You're in charge, and your job is to keep your people safe, to prevent this unimaginable horror from ever happening again, because otherwise what is the point of you? Babies slaughtered in their cradles, deliberately and sadistically, I'd going to be one hell of a red line for most people. It's literally unthinkable.

And do you think the world is a safer place because Daesh/Isis/Islamic State were defeated? I recognise it's more complicated than that, but I would say the answer is unquestionably yes. And innocent people still died as a result of that war, which is tragic.

Having now listened to the TRIP emergency podcast from last night I highly recommend it to everyone. It’s an interview with Noah Yuval Harari, an Israeli historian. He has always been highly critical of the current Israeli government, so it should not be viewed as a “pro-Israel” interview: he is thoughtful and balanced but at the same time talks of the pain he and all Jewish people are feeling right now whilst sympathising with the ordinary people of Gaza.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-rest-is-politics/id1611374685?i=1000631234308

@Mustardseed86 I'm not in that situation, but it does seem that most of the damage was done by Hamas breaking the fence and getting into Israel, so I think my primary concern would be for England to secure the country and its borders. The rockets have been a problem for years, but the huge numbers killed in Israel were due Hamas being able to physically enter, as far as I can tell. I don't think I would want England to immediately go to carpet bombing Wales and blockading essential services.