To think the high volume of male abusers means some people find it hard to see when a female is an abuser?

[BraykeDance]

Having experienced first hand fairly extreme abuse from a female, I feel a bit like even in 2023 some people struggle to believe women are capable of extreme psychological, emotional and even physical abuse.

I find often people want to victim blame by implying the man must have deserved it or driven her to it. Amber Heard being a great example of an abuser where I think if she were a man people would see much more clearly that she is an abuser.

I understand men (for reasons I don't understand) have a greater tendency to be abusers in the sense of power and control; but women do this too sometimes.

I found, as someone recovering from such am abuser, that many people minimised it and almost normalised behaviour that would certainly mean prison for a man.

Which made healing as a victim a lot harder. And also made it far easier for the abuser to continue.

AIBU to think we hold women to a different standard and sometimes reframe abusive behaviour or coercive control to fit with the idea of the female victim?

Can’t believe you are seriously defending a man saying he wants to fuck his partners burnt corpse.
horrifying.

You love a reaction like this don't you!
Taking something out of context and being oh so shocked. Just looking for an argument, I won't rise to it.

I agree
It does show the insidious nature of the patriarchy, that horrendous stiff like this can be written off as a "private joke"

A few things.
Other people understood well enough, one even found research to back up what I was saying.
So why should I try to explain when you are going to gaslight me again?
And just FYI, another trait of abusers is that they separate people out from friends, family and supporters. Why am I saying this? because this is what you tried to do with your 'look a man' stunt.
But enough about maybe you would like to discuss the OP's point.
It would make a change.

Ok, well as I said I wouldn't post anymore on your thread let's just agree to disagree. I don't think she isn't abusive because she's a woman though FYI, I heard the tapes and thought she came across very badly but the fact remains she has a lot of evidence (much of which was excluded due to some batshit interpretations of the hearsay rule) going back to very early in the relationship that she was a victim of pretty standard domestic abuse by a far more powerful partner.

Most of his witnesses were on his payroll, have demonstrated they're willing to overlook and cover up criminal activity for Depp, and several were swapped out between the UK and US trials to literally give what was previously another witness's testimony. So I'm not going to judge the entire relationship by some of her behaviour years into that scenario. I have zero doubts about the statements of e.g. her makeup artist who covered up bruises, or the situation in Australia when he was clearly psychotic and you keep falsely claiming she confessed to being responsible for his finger injury.

Whether she's a likeable or nice person is separate to the issue of whether she was a victim in that relationship who got to the point where felt it was better to stay and fight, for whatever reason.

As I've said I won't post anymore, I really won't this time and obviously I won't have changed your opinion and I'm sure you will continue to share your views on this as you see fit!

But again you distract from the real damning evidence that shows her literally admitting to being an abuser by focussing on his private text messages and making it all about women and the patriarchy and misogyny. It always goes back to women being victims, it can NEVER be the woman's fault in your eyes.
You'd always find something not to like about a male victim in a trial, whether it be texts or comments, or behaviour. There is never a perfect victim and he was FAR from perfect, but a victim nonetheless.
I'm so glad there wasn't anyone like you in that jury and they were able to take an unbiased and fair view of the evidence.

Sadly I have to fully agree with you. Several posters have mentioned about being physically abused by their mothers, partners ex's even sexually abused by their own mother.

In each case at the time when they tried to tell someone about it they were either ignored, minimised or simply not believed.

Regretfully on this thread those poor women are again being ignored because a limited number of posters want to bang on about pissing Amber Heard and Johnny Depp and their media circus trial which is not in any way central to the purpose of this thread.

And meanwhile real women and men with real horrific experiences of being abused mentally or physically by other women get ignored AGAIN.

@Mustardseed86

Yes, let's agree to disagree. But evidence that was excluded was excluded for a reason. If she has such evidence and makes it public and I found it to be credible then I'd take it on board.

Credible would mean some sort of proof (recordings or credible witness statements) and a story which made logical sense. Eg: going to get a restraining order against someone who you're simultaneously texting incessantly begging to see them isn't credible.

A makeup artist covering up bruises doesn't prove anything to me. The woman who abused us probably had bruises from bring physically removed from our property . She also had bruises once from falling drunk off a bar stool that she tried to say my DP gave her (thankfully there were witnesses). At one point she was drunk and stood in our garden repeatedly punching herself in the face. So unless there's proof he gave her bruises, it doesn't persuade me of anything.

If credible evidence was shown to me, and I was shown concrete proof that he also engaged in a pattern of abusive behaviour, psychological and / or physical then I might have a different view. I just haven't seen anything at all credible that indicates that. Her word insufficient- just as his would be had I not heard her confessing to it.

I don't believe, as a rational human being that if he had beaten her up for years on end, raped her with a broken bottle and so on that she would not have mentioned this in the recordings. I heard more than one recordings which go similar to this:

HIM: You hit me
HER: yes I did, but you keep "splitting"
HIM: Yes I'm leaving because I dont want to fight physically

Or
HIM: You hit me!
HER: (Lengthy confessions to repetitive hitting/ calling him a baby)

My logical brain can't conceive of any situation where if he had done a single thing she says he did that those conversations would have gone like that. They would have been like:

HIM: You hit me
HER: Maybe but you've hit me, kicked me, ripped my hair out, tried to kill me and raped me with a bottle.

As a logical person, there is no way I can conceive of that not being how those conversations would go. Hence I don't really believe he ever hit her.

I've never said she confessed to cutting his finger off. I said it was implied. As @Ilovebudgies says, during a conversation about her violence, he says "Amber I lost my finger man. I am having jars etc thrown at me" and she doesn't say "you didn't lose your finger because of me"; which makes sense surely? Hence I think his story that she chucked a bottle at him and he covered for her adds up.

This is based on logic. It has nothing to do with patriarchy or misogyny or PR campaigns. It's just adding up the facts

@1dayatatime

I completely agree with you and its a shame. I tried initially to ask people to stay off that topic and was accussed of policing the thread.

Can't win.

I'vtried d to engage every single person who's come here to actually talk about their horrible experiences, but I think maybe this just isn't the forum for it.

I can certainly understand why some people take this issue to heart, as its a projection in a way of their life experiences.

Victims of female abuse who haven't been believed, probably find it hard to see a celebrity example of that (that's certainly true for me).

She was never on trial. It wasn't about who was the "victim". Both the UK and US trials were about whether it was fair to imply he was an abuser. And don't forget they both won. The court ruled it was defamatory to say he was an abuser, but also defamatory to say she made it up.

Those texts were rank misogyny. It actually doesn't matter whether or not he was a victim. That doesn't excuse those texts (or the ones where he joked he had her rotting corpse in his boot).

I'm not going to rehash all the evidence, suffice to say I don't agree she was "admitting she was abuser" on those tapes. Or if she was, then brayke has also admitted both her and her husband are abusers on this thread by saying both of them have been physical with partners in the past.

My feelings about the Depp/Heard trial are in no way indicative of my broader opinions and that "it can NEVER be the woman's fault in your eyes". You don't know me and that's just a ridiculous thing to say.

Honestly. This thread is bonkers. Pointing out incel logic is "bullying" but this is fine: "I'm so glad there wasn't anyone like you in that jury and they were able to take an unbiased and fair view of the evidence".

@BraykeDance

"I completely agree with you and it's a shame. I tried initially to ask people to stay off that topic and was accussed of policing the thread.

Can't win."

+++

It's simple and I'll happily be the thread police given how serious I think this topic is. So if anyone raises a post referring or mentioning to AH and JD in anyway then just ignore it and don't respond.

Then maybe just maybe we can get to the point of this thread.

She is literally berating him relentlessly for splitting AKA leaving or running away, for booking extra rooms. It is constant. He can't win, if he stays and things get heated she will claim he hit her (like where he says he couldnt escape on the plane so pushed her), but if he runs she claims he is a baby.
I honestly can't imagine how it would feel to be in that position. To know you can't hit back and you can't run away, totally trapped unless you end the marriage, and then she claims she is a victim and wrecks his life.

What do you mean they both won?

"The jury unanimously found that Heard could not substantiate her allegations against Depp and that she knew her claims of abuse were false when she published her 2018 essay"

'The jury determined that Heard acted with actual malice when writing her op-ed. The jury awarded Depp $10 million in compensatory damages and $5 million in punitive damages in his defamation suit'

Not only did they find her guilty of lying about abuse but that she did it with actual malice.
It doesn't get much more conclusive than that.

There was only one statement they found to be defamation from depps side and that was just one statement that was made by his lawyer.
'The jury found that Depp, through Waldman, defamed Heard on one count'

I agree with you that the texts were awful, I don't like the man, I never said otherwise.

That last quote of mine possibly came across as too personal and offensive, and I apologise if so as it wasn't my intention, but you come across very biased against male victims and that's what I meant by that point - I'm glad the jury were unbiased and could see the truth.

I think I'm done with this argument now, I agree it's been derailed but I just feel so strongly about this topic I find it hard not to respond.

@1dayatatime

Perfect, I'll hand you over the thread police mantle.

As a note to all, I'll be out all day tomorrow so won't be online but if you post here as an abuse survivor I promise I will hear you and will respond once I'm back

@AdamRyan

NO!

I'm not going to rehash all the evidence, suffice to say I don't agree she was "admitting she was abuser" on those tapes. Or if she was, then braykehas also admitted both her and her husband are abusers on this thread by saying both of them have been physical with partners in the past

My DP dragging an abuser out of his home, whilst she refused to leave, went for him with a knife and smashed his belonging is NOT remotely similar on ANY level to what Amber Heard was doing. For goodness sake! Stop taking things too far here!!!! My DP is an abuse survivor and you've just compared us both to an abuser! TOO FAR

In the US trial, it was found it was defamatory to imply Depp was abusive. (He won his suit)
But it was also defamatory to imply Heard made it up (she won her countersuit)
Those are mutually exclusive positions so it doesn't move things forward.

I find this video terrifying (it reminds me of an ex). Me finding it terrifying is irrelevant really but my opinionbthat Depp is scary and reminds me of abusers I know is no more or less valid than other peoples opinions on Heard

You admitted that you've hit an ex in a fight and your partner removed his ex from his space using force.
Without any context, those actions could both be perceived as "abuse".

The tape everyone is referring to also has limited context. Depp says nothing. Amber says she was scared he was going to hurt her, last time she did nothing and he really hurt her.

Without context it is impossible to tell if she's abusive or if she was reacting to his abuse.

My point is saying people are "abusive" on the basis of a snapshot means nothing. Based on what you've said about your partner, you should understand that.

This is very desperate Adam. Multiple recordings admitting you lose control, "get physical" and repeatedly physically hit an intimate partner while they repeatedly try and get away can't possibly have any context that makes it not abuse.

Please don't get so sucked into defending this woman that you try and compare victims fighting off an attacker to what she was doing.

What on earth are you talking about?! He won the case, she was found guilty of defaming him by calling him an abuser and that she did it knowingly with malice.

He was found to have made one defamatory statement and it wasn't even his statement, it was his lawyers. It was in relation to one incident where the police were called by Heard and his lawyer claimed it was a hoax.
So he was guilty of defaming her by saying that ONE incident was a hoax. It was nothing to do with her being an abuser in general.

You clearly know very little about this case, and haven't listened to the audios or watched the whole trial.

i saw that video, I watched the trial, maybe try that yourself.

I actually can't believe you posted this to OP I'm gobsmacked.
Which audio has no context? Mine? There are loads of audios, all showing a similar thing, her getting annoyed when he runs away, her admitting to hitting him and belittling him and goading him. I don't think you even believe what you are saying, you are just purely here to argue, and actually upsetting OP in the process.

You just compared her partner who is a victim of horrific abuse to Amber Heard who you know she (and a lot of others) believe is a vile and prolific abuser.

Women can absolutely be abusers. Mine ended in SA. I then found the courage and spoke up. I am so sorry your DP and yourself experienced such pain and fear. Hopefully now you are both able to start moving on but you never forget.

A dear friend of mine used to be so outgoing. He loved rock climbing, abseiling, bungee jumping and fire walking. We went Segway racing and tobogganing and would then pretend we were grownups (I was 25 and he was 34) and visit an art gallery or exhibition. Then he met his wife. We don’t do anything anymore as she will barely let him out and he is terrified of leaving the children with her incase she makes them suffer because he isn’t there. We can all see it but he won’t admit anything so nothing is ever done to help them.

😂

I did watch it - I just don't agree with you. Which is allowed. I found the testimony of her friends on the night he smashed up the apartment very compelling. I found the testimony from the surgeon who said his finger injury couldn't have been caused by the bottle very compelling. I found the testimony of his ex about the bottle being thrown compelling. I found the testimony from his agent about why he was let go from films compelling. I have no doubt he is a nasty piece of work, drunk often, abuses drugs, disrespectful to those around him and potentially violent.

But anyway, in respect of the court case:

Waldman said her claiming to be abused and her friends statements the apartment was smashed up and she was abused were "a hoax" - this was found defamatory aka her friends and her were not colluding and making stuff up when they said Jonny smashed her house up and was abusive, he was abusive.

Heard said she was a "spokesperson for abuse" - this was found defamatory to Depp aka he was not an abuser.

These are contradictory verdicts. So the courts haven't helped settle whether or not he's an abuser.

She has never been on trial, so any evidence she's abusive hasnt been tested in court.

I really don't understand how anyone can be so adamant it's black and white - abuser and victim. She must be the abuser and he must be the victim.

I think it was an unhealthy relationship and they both behaved badly.

I know a lad who was raped by a woman; she even admitted on paper that she knew he didn't want when he was sober so she got him so drunk he didn't really have any idea what he doing.

Her defence was if he didn't want to he wouldn't have got hard. Sadly, the cop he reported to seemed to think that was a reasonable statement despite everything else, and the whole thing was shelved. Shocking. Hope this has improved in the 25+ years since then.

This was the defamatory statement
'Quite simply this was an ambush, a hoax. They set Mr. Depp up by calling the cops but the first attempt didn't do the trick,"
Said by his lawyer (not Depp) to the daily mail. And the punitive damages which is the compensation figure was £0!

The rest of the entire 6 week trial was to establish whether she was right in her op ed to call him an abuser.

But hey, believe what you want, but if they both won the case, someone should tell Amber and her lawyers because they all seemed pretty pissed off 😂

To me it is very black and white, abuser and victim, but I don't have anything left to say on it so I'll let everyone is else crack on.

Im so sorry to hear this, it sounds very scary!
When there are children involved abusers can exert total control, it makes it so hard to escape the cycle of abuse.