To think the high volume of male abusers means some people find it hard to see when a female is an abuser?

[BraykeDance]

Having experienced first hand fairly extreme abuse from a female, I feel a bit like even in 2023 some people struggle to believe women are capable of extreme psychological, emotional and even physical abuse.

I find often people want to victim blame by implying the man must have deserved it or driven her to it. Amber Heard being a great example of an abuser where I think if she were a man people would see much more clearly that she is an abuser.

I understand men (for reasons I don't understand) have a greater tendency to be abusers in the sense of power and control; but women do this too sometimes.

I found, as someone recovering from such am abuser, that many people minimised it and almost normalised behaviour that would certainly mean prison for a man.

Which made healing as a victim a lot harder. And also made it far easier for the abuser to continue.

AIBU to think we hold women to a different standard and sometimes reframe abusive behaviour or coercive control to fit with the idea of the female victim?

brayke someone did call CF an abuser.
I think she was abusive but not an abuser. When I said that you said I was implying how your husband was treated was OK and I was minimising DV.

Now you are agreeing with me

I agree with you op. I've been on the receiving end of a woman's smear campaign. It took me a few years, but I eventually ended my relationship to get away from her (she would have been my sil if I stayed) by the end I was a shell of my former self. Women can be so mentally abusive they are dangerous. No remorse, no empathy for another human and disarmingly charming to others.
I also grew up with a sister like this, vicious and cruel behind closed doors, there isn't a lie she wouldn't tell to project herself as the victim. People who barely know her think she is wonderful. Her ex husband has a very different opinion.

There is alot to be talked about regarding the mental torture women inflict on others, which can start at a surprisingly young age and can completely shatter someone's life.
I also believe Heard is a manipulative abuser.

@mustard

She was proven to have lied...because you don't believe her?

I watched her on the witness stand. I didn't believe her, because nothing she said correlated with

• Other witness accounts
• The evidence (eg: tapes and texts)
• Basic logic (eg: her claims made no sense)

One very obvious lie is going public as a domestic abuse victim when you've been routinely hitting your husband.

If the sex abuse story was debunked, I was unaware and apologise. But I think she's a liar because I've seen her with my eyes completely misrepresent truth.

There's a reason hundreds of acknowledged domestic abuse specialists and experts signed an open letter in support of her after the trial in Virginia

"Hundreds" = 130
"Acknowledged domestic abuse experts" is doing very heavy lifting here. A few organisations, yes. The list I read was stars, journalists and mostly feminist organisations. And yes, I think I know more about female abuse than most of those people who've unlikely experienced it. The "reason" they signed it is probably the same reason you are posting: they have a bias against male victims.

"No abuser would..." "No real victim would..."
Just STOP. You are NOT an expert on domestic violence/ abuse. You are an expert onyourexperience only

If you can find me any "expert" who says the victim is sometimes the one chasing their abuser around the house to hit them, or telling them for hours on end that they're a worthless person, I'd be happy to take that on.

and apparently projecting that onto Amber Heard based on a few snapshots at the very end of the relationship

I honestly think this is you. I think, as the thread suggests, that for some reason people project onto this case because she is a woman. I dont believe if she were a man that a soul on earth would be defending him.

My opinion is just that.

Yours is just that.

I think his behaviour is entirely consistent with what an abuser looks like and you said yourself that destabilised the victim.

Smashing stuff up. Self harming and writing threats in blood. Verbal abuse. Stonewalling and ignoring her trying to connect. Manipulating a narrative to make her look crazy. Scaring her friends to the point they called the police.

Someone also ordered and paid for a whole social media campaign to smear and degrade her by producing the kind of propaganda of heavily edited tapes etc. The only person who's been subject to a bigger coordinated campaign is Meghan Markle. I don't know who or why, but that doesn't suggest "she's an abuser". It suggests someone is persecuting her.

Like you, I watched the whole trial. I believe her more than I believe him. The finger, shit in the bed and black eye stories from him are clearly not true, and those are worse than anything she said in court about him.

Plus you didn't answer my question about what kind of man "jokes" with friends about murdering his ex, burning the corpse then fucking it.

We can disagree but you have to accept it isn't a clear cut case of a "female abuser"

@AdamRyan

braykesomeone did call CF an abuser.
I think she was abusive but not an abuser. When I said that you said I was implying how your husband was treated was OK and I was minimising DV

Now you are agreeing with me

No, I was just calling out that you said she was driven to it. I can't see how anyone is driven to that. Its not self defence if they're asleep.

But I know little about it so I reserve judgement on who she was. I simply have no idea as I've never heard her story or the full facts.

The texts to his friend are totally irrelevant, they were never meant to be read by anyone other than his friend, they were references from films and fiction, they were in-jokes and he was rightfully angry with her.
you're not meant to 'get it', you don't have to like his banter, you don't have to like him, you don't have to be his friend, it doesn't make him an abuser.
You are trying to find things you don't like about him to justify why he can't be a victim.
It's exactly the same as when a man doesn't want to believe a woman and says 'well look at her, she's a slut anyway, who would dress like that' to diminish her character. It's irrelevant.

Like @BraykeDance says, he isn't a sympathetic character but that doesn't mean he can't be a victim.

@Starboy14

Everything you're describing sounds like an abusive personality. NPD perhaps - which isn't something women are better at AFAIK. I've spent years listening to survivor stories and men do all these same psychological head fuck games. I've read women who have never been hit, but ended up sick, mentally destroyed from this kind of psychological abuse.

Sorry you went through it

Jokes about raping and murdering women are consistent with a man who is misogynistic and thinks using sex and violence to get what you want is OK.

Abusive men also commonly have those attitudes.

We were not meant to see or hear any of the stuff presented in court, that's kind of the point.

It's exactly the same as when a man doesn't want to believe a woman and says 'well look at her, she's a slut anyway, who would dress like that' to diminish her character. It's irrelevant.

It's nothing like that at all. That's usually used to discredit victims of sex assault, by claiming they brought it on themselves/its "regretful".
Depps texts just expose his attitudes to women.

Anyway that's irrelevant because the thread is about female abusers, using AH as an example. I don't believe there is strong evidence she was abusive and I think we should apply "innocent until proven guilty" equally to men and women.

@AdamRyan

Smashing stuff up. Self harming and writing threats in blood. Verbal abuse

I dont deny he did that. Drugged up, being abused by his wife psychologically and physically (which I have heard with my own ears). And probably generally just a messy human being.

Stonewalling and ignoring her trying to connect

No words Adam! OMG! He was asking for space because she kept (her words) getting physical and hitting him! What did you want him to do? Stand there and get beaten up?!

The only person who's been subject to a bigger coordinated campaign is Meghan Markle

There aren't tapes of Meghan Markle doing bad things though.

Plus you didn't answer my question about what kind of man "jokes" with friends about murdering his ex, burning the corpse then fucking it

I said WAY worse about the person who abused us and ruined our lives!

We can disagree but you have to accept it isn't a clear cut case of a "female abuser"

I honestly can't imagine a clearer case than psychological and physical abuse being admitted to on tape, so I give up lol

He wasn't "asking for space" he was saying nothing at all. You are projecting.

I cannot imagine what texts you could send that would be worse to be honest. The minimisation of that is appalling.

And as I said, your partners ex could probably have got him to admit his "abuse" on tape while they were together, that shows nothing if the "abuse" is actually a result of extreme provocation from an abusive partner.

She says she was worried he would seriously hurt her. Why are you minimising that?

@AdamRyan

He wasn't "asking for space" he was saying nothing at all. You are projecting

Yes he does. He literally says repeatedly to her that they need a physical separation to calm down and he will come back and talk to her.

He says "you can call me a coward, you can call me anything you like, but I am NOT getting into a physical fight with you Amber"

He was doing the right thing.

I didn't say that. I said we don't know if she was "driven to it", which is a common defence to male violence. One you have used for Depp and for your own male partner.

You might want to reflect on why you think men can be driven to violence, and that's acceptable. But if a woman is violent, its because she is an abuser.

@AdamRyan

She says she was worried he would seriously hurt her. Why are you minimising that?

I do not believe that if you are seriously worried someone will seriously hurt you that you sit there taunting them, belittling them, laughing at them and bullying them verbally. I think if you're scared someone will seriously hurt you, that's the last thing you'd do.

I do not believe that if you are seriously worried someone will seriously hurt you that you would repeatedly physically attack them, chase after them when they are trying to escape, or call them a "baby" because they won't fight you.

I think those things are a clear indication she knew he would definitely not hurt her, no matter how much she provoked him.

@AdamRyan

I didn't say that. I said we don't know if she was "driven to it", which is a common defence to male violence. One you have used for Depp and for your own male partner

No, defending yourself when someone is physically attacking you is self defence. Assaulting a sleeping partner is not self defence and I can't see how you'd be driven to it.

She said he wasn't asleep he was texting a girl.
We don't know because it never went to court.

You're making assumptions about what an abuser looks like. That isn't evidence. A man showing signs of being a misogynist doesn't make him an abuser.
Have you seen the film's that he was referencing in his texts? Do you know where the references came from? Probably not, so you are taking it completely out of context. It was a private conversation between friends.
If I message my friend and tell her my husband has been an absolute prick and I want to use his balls in a game of cricket would that make me an abuser?

It is similar to my example because it is making an assumption that 'the type of person' who dresses like that is more likely to be up for it, therefore more likely to have consented and 'wanted it', more likely to not be a victim.
You are saying that a the "type of man' who acts like that is more likely to be a misogynist and less likely to be a victim. It is just a distraction from the evidence.

Her defence dragged in his text messages to diminish his character, but he never denied any of it. He was never trying to paint himself as being a stand up man or perfect, just that he was a victim of her abuse.

You need to look into the effects of stonewalling in relationships

@AdamRyan

I understand what stonewalling is. I also understand it is NOT taking space during a fight. Particularly if you're being repeatedly hit during those fights.

See... always finding an excuse. There MUST be a reason she did it, must be some convoluted theory to why she repeatedly hit him chased after him belittled him and threw things at him and started fights with him.
She could literally have video'd herself standing over him and punching him and in your eyes she would be a victim...because she's a woman.
I give up.

I didn't say it did.
Research shows male abuse is often underpinned by entitled and misogynistic attitudes of the man (read "Why does he do that?")

Johnny's texts show he has an entitled and misogynistic attitude (she's wronged me, therefore deserves to be murdered and sexually degraded)

That's consistent with an abusers attitude. It doesn't mean he is definitely abusively but it is relevant to the case.

Remember, the case was about whether it was accurate to describe him as an abuser, not whether she was the abuser.

To go back to your example, if a woman was being prosecuted for wasting police time by making false allegations of sexual assault, then maybe her clothes and attitude could be relevant.

If its a case where a man is being prosecuted and she's a victim of assault, then they aren't.

If I message my friend and tell her my husband has been an absolute prick and I want to use his balls in a game of cricket would that make me an abuser?

If he accused you of being abusive and it went to court, that type of thing could be used as evidence, yes

@Ilovebudgies

She could literally have video'd herself standing over him and punching him and in your eyes she would be a victim...because she's a woman

This.

I didn't want the thread to be about this celebrity couple, but I think people putting forward their arguments and reasoning was kind of helpful actually as its a good test case where the facts are all known and you can observe the way people think.

I wonder if what makes the difference is seeing the profound effect on a male victim for yourself. When we went through this together (obviously much worse for him), I healed better.

I watched what it did to him. Just a short fling with this woman and he went from happy and healthy to heavy drinking, mentally unstable, anxiety, paranoia, days off work.

Later were the night terrors, shaking in corners if the door went, sexual dysfunction, chronic illnesses, and profound depression.

It took him almost three years to be able to say "she was an abuser". Despite being hit, blackmailed, almost run over, stalked, blah blah. It didn't fit with his idea of what a "man" went through.

She was just "emotional" or "mentally unstable" or "a heavy drinker".

It reached a point of a complete breakdown 3 years on from life altering PTSD for him to say he wanted to feel joy and feel safe again and he finally sought help.

Once he was able to see it and get support from a counsellor he started to get well again, but she damaged us both and our lives no different to a natural disaster. For years we were shadows.

I think if men are able to speak out and be believed and be supported without being laughed at our dismissed it might make it easier to recover.

Stalking anyone, regardless of gender, is not acceptable behaviour, the charm offensive, is a common trait in abuse cases.

I lived for a while with someone of another sexual persuasion, I should add we were just house sharers, and she was being stalked by her x lover, it was truly frightening, a bit like a female version of psycho, however, it gets worse here, Jane, not her real name, made the situation worse by facilitating this individual, to the extent of inviting her over for tea and may I add, a bit of rumpy pumpy in between., instead of just cutting her off.

So, it ended up becoming a nightmare, as I never knew, when she might turn up, in the house, truly 😨 to say, the least.

🙄 I now truly give up.