To think the high volume of male abusers means some people find it hard to see when a female is an abuser?

[BraykeDance]

Having experienced first hand fairly extreme abuse from a female, I feel a bit like even in 2023 some people struggle to believe women are capable of extreme psychological, emotional and even physical abuse.

I find often people want to victim blame by implying the man must have deserved it or driven her to it. Amber Heard being a great example of an abuser where I think if she were a man people would see much more clearly that she is an abuser.

I understand men (for reasons I don't understand) have a greater tendency to be abusers in the sense of power and control; but women do this too sometimes.

I found, as someone recovering from such am abuser, that many people minimised it and almost normalised behaviour that would certainly mean prison for a man.

Which made healing as a victim a lot harder. And also made it far easier for the abuser to continue.

AIBU to think we hold women to a different standard and sometimes reframe abusive behaviour or coercive control to fit with the idea of the female victim?

Don't bother budgies
The most optimistic case (if you are a woman) that can made about the Depp/Heard is they were both abusive and justice was served to both.
The worst is that a woman was abused by her partner and then the court system gave him further tools to abuse her for reporting him.

There is no scenario in which Depp looks good. He is damned by his own words. What kind of man jokes he wants to drown, burn, and necrophilise his ex? That is very very very far from normal.

😂
I think mustard was pretty accurate. Can't see any interpretation of what you wrote that doesn't boil down to "women go to bad boys for sex and fun, then nice boys for resources to raise children. Not surprising nice men become misogynists to attract girls."
Maybe you should clarify what you meant, if not that?

@Ilovebudgies

To be honest I just can't be fucked to even read my own thread anymore. Completely hijacked by people defending this woman and the people who came here to have a convo about the issue have mostly been driven away.

I was an abuse victim.

A lot of the things she said to me and to us was verbatim what I heard on those recordings. All the same wording. All the same hallmarks of blaming, manipulation, threats and devaluing.

We used to hide, lights off in the house throughout, every Friday and Saturday night as there was a good chance our abuser would show up, emboldened by the drink. We even took tp staying elsewhere and finally moved.

The idea that we would have approached her in one of her rages is just laughable. Fight, flight, freeze or fawn. Every time. And "fight" doesn't mean banging on doors where your "abuser" has locked themselves up to get away from you 🙄 and telling them they're a baby.

The idea that being able to spot an abusive female a mile off when you've dealt with it personally makes me or anyone else a misogynist is a symptom of everything that's wrong with this conversation. A man saying those same things on tape would be universally condemned.

Let them hijack if it's that important to them to defend a woman who confessed herself to being a domestic abuser and then sold herself as an ambassador of domestic violence. What a hill to die on.

Given that we are all aware of your agenda and hers matching, I am not surprised.

But again a very interesting rewrite of what I wrote.

But you do you.

Look at who has more relationships in their younger years. Is it the nice men that will treat women right and look after them or is it the exciting bad boys?
We all know that its the bad boys. So what do those that want a relationship do? They mirror the market.
For all that some women say they want a man that shows his emotions etc. most will ridicule those same men until they are either ready to settle down or are done with the bad boys and want some emotional back up to bring up the children that the bad boys have abandoned.

Sentence 3: bad boys have more relationships

Sentence 4 and 5: In order to get relationships, boys have to act like "bad boys"

Sentence 6: most women ridicule men who show their emotions/are nice men

Also sentence 6: women stop ridiculing when they want to settle down OR they need help to bring up Bad Boys abandoned children

Tell me what you meant by this, if its not what mustard and i thought?

Oh my fucking god, would you leave her alone? Why are you bullying her post? This is the behaviour I was talking about earlier. Pretending to be shocked by comments that are normal views held in society in order to belittle someone and distort reality, when she made a perfectly normal and acceptable point... and now pushing her to explain so you can pounce again.

Anyhow a quick look on Google showed a few studies, actually tons of articles about female attraction to bad boys and the like because to most of society (outside the feminist board on Mumsnet) it's a perfectly normal observation, whether you agree with it or not.

This one is recent 'Understanding women's preferences for different types of men as mates'

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/the-attraction-doctor/202212/why-women-choose-nice-guys-or-bad-boys%3famp

Some direct quotes for you

'Overall, then, we see that women who want long-term support tend to prefer a nice guy. In contrast, those who want a short-term fling may be more likely to choose a bad boy'

'Women who pick bad boys tend to be prioritizing short-term physical attraction over long-term emotional support'

'Women who pick nice guys, in contrast, are prioritizing emotional support instead'

'Otherwise, bad boys and girls tend to pair up for passionate flings, while nice guys and gals tend to settle into companionate relationships'

These last findings are supported by earlier research from McDaniel (2005), who evaluated women's reasons for dating a nice guy specifically. In that study, women reported choosing a nice guy to date when they wanted conversation and commitment, with a sweet guy, without physical contact. When they did want physical contact and fun, however, they picked a "fun/sexy" guy (i.e., a bad boy) instead'

This is pretty much exactly what @FrippEnos said, and her post was compared to fucking incel and MRA propaganda! What a mock over reaction!
This is once of the most harmless, easily accessible social psychology websites out there.

And she never used the term misogyny, you did! She said if there is a a market for bad boys there will be bad boys, hardly a huge leap!

I agree it's so depressing that most of those posters have now gone and your thread has turned out like this.

1. Fripp is a man AFAIK, I've encountered them before

1. Mcdaniel did not find that women prefer "jerks". She found "nice guys" often have social anxiety, and anxiety puts people off

1. https://theconversation.com/do-women-really-go-for-bad-boys-heres-the-science-that-settles-the-question-59409

The problem with the nice-guys-finish-last stereotype, aside from going against the grain of years of scientific evidence, is that it may compromise the possibility of forming meaningful relationships. Perpetuating this myth not only creates unhelpful expectations about how we should behave, but trying to live up to the myth can sometimes damage relationships.
In the end, the idea that women want to date bad boys really just reinforces the misogynist’s idea of deceitful women and earnest “nice” men baffled by their lack of dating success. It allows some men to blame and hate women as a means of deflecting attention away from their own shortcomings. So, if you’re looking to science for some advice, it’s simple: be nice.

The point of my post wasn't to prove that women prefer bad boys, I don't actually care, it wasn't even my post.
You will find studies all over the internet with widely varying results I'm sure, it's so subjective.

My point is that everyone knows that girls liking bad boys is a pretty standard observation, that study was to test the 'laymen hypothesis that women prefer bad boys' you probably can't get past age 15 without hearing it.
Yet this poster makes the fair point that in order to deconstruct stereotypes, both men and women would need to be on board, and she/he thinks women are often drawn to the most masculine bad boy, which reinforces it.

That post was then pounced on repeatedly, she was compared to incel and MRA. Can't you see how that shuts down the debate and derails the thread? Her/his point was totally valid, you might not agree with it, but it doesn't make it wrong.

It happens all the time. Here's an example of how it goes...

Person A
'its hard to deconstruct male stereotypes when they are supported and held to high esteem by both men and women in society, such as women being attracted to macho bad boys'

Person B 'what?? You're blaming women for men being bad boys? You realise the first rule of misogyny is blaming women for male behaviour. Are you saying women deserve to be raped because they like bad boys? Is that what you saying?? You support rape do you? MRA! INCEL!

Debate closed.

This was the initial post, it says nothing like "the fair point that in order to deconstruct stereotypes, both men and women would need to be on board, and she/he thinks women are often drawn to the most masculine bad boy, which reinforces it."

The "both sides" blah came after the misogyny and incel logic were pointed out.

@AdamRyan

Will you please stop the bullying .

This thread is dealing with an important, under discussed and often dismissed issue of female DV to male or female (as mentioned in lesbian relationships).

The derailing and bullying has to stop.

She said 'too' because she had already told (lied to) the world she was a victim, this was after it was in the media. It wasn't because it was a 'given'

Quite the opposite. She was desperately trying to give a reason why she called the police, she said things get 'crazy'. He then says 'come on I lost a finger, I had jars and cans thrown at my nose'
Notice how she never denied that's how he lost his finger.

Now at that point, where he shows that her abuse was worse than his by listing things she has thrown at him, don't you think she would say 'but you've punched me repeatedly and raped me with a shattered vodka bottle? Or listed ANYTHING that he has ever done that matched up to what he said.
There is no way he would list those things she did if he knew he had done far worse, it wouldn't make any logical sense.

We know things got 'crazy' between them, there are audios where she admits hitting, hittING (plural) him, where she admits she starts physical fights, where she accuses him of always 'running away' when it gets heated, him hiding in bathrooms and her admitting she was annoyed he had locked himself in, calling him a baby for always running away, not a real man.

And she repeatedly hit him because he opened a door on her toes? Really? You do realise she had time to invent stories before the trial! She's not going to say 'yeah I kept hitting him as I am a vile abuser' is she?
He said the headbutt was accidental during one of her attacks which can be believed as it was mentioned so casually in the audio between them, and there was no evidence of him beating the shit out of her, none whatsoever.

There are audios of her relentlessly belittling him and he stays calm despite not even knowing he's being recorded.
His sister claiming she had to book two rooms so he had somewhere to escape to, and so much testimony that she was volatile and unpredictable. And she wasn't 'in therapy' she had a therapist, most rich Americans do.

There is never any evidence of this extreme abuse that she lays claim to. This big man that repeatedly punches her with a fist full of rings.

He's nearly 60 years old and no previous partner has come forward to say he physically abused them, which is so rare, normally at least someone somewhere comes out the woodwork if someone is a violent woman beater.

Amber Heard is an abuser is it clear as day and it frightens me that people can't see through her.
And that's the last I'll say on the topic.

@Ilovebudgies

Bravo 👏

I thought you didn’t want people discussing AH? 🙄 I thought it was “derailing”
your thread.

@Tandora Grow up.

My mum sexually abused me for years. I wasn't believed or given help. Even now she gets sympathy

Oh @Scottishdreams1991 I am so sorry :( Have you managed to get support?

AdamRyan

what you did was give an opinion, not a fact,
That I have corrected you and pointed out that you and your friend have had to rewrite what I wrote several times whilst still claiming that I am wrong says alot about you,

I find it somewhat amusing that you are trying to gaslight me on a thread about abuse.

I agree with you op. But this is the wrong forum to ask the question. I've given up asking for advice on our situation with dh's highly abusive and manipulative ex wife. Because all the responses are 'well he must have done something wrong to her' and 'you must be an idiot to believe his version of events'. I've literally witnessed her in action. And her version of events was unpicked and found to be false-lots of evidence-in court. Yet still I'm told here that I'm wrong to believe him, and he's the abuser-because he's a man. It's staggering.

'He's nearly 60 years old and no previous partner has come forward', - jesus that's your evidence? Yeah climate change doesn't exist either.

No that isn't evidence. For evidence you've got the audios, pictures, testimonies, injuries, witnesses, hospital report and abusers confession that were watched by a jury in court who ALL found her guilty of defamation, but congrats for picking the one part of my paragraph that isn't evidence but just a valid observation.

I don't think the credibility of people experiencing abuse should be tied to JD or AH. They are just one case and whoever you believe about them it shouldn't mean you assume that speaks for all men or all women.

Personally I know women are abused as I know a woman who was frequently hurt and in the end only got away when he broke her arm. I also know men can be abused as I know a man who was punched in the face while he was holding their baby in his arms.

I don't know JD or AH and their case doesn't convince me of anything.

Just, again, pointing out the hypocrisy.

No you're not @Tandora . You've come to this thread to deliberately derail it, behaved appallingly, tried to accuse other people of what you yourself are doing and are trying to bait / goad and play silly gotcha games with abuse victims.

Take @1dayatatime very good advice.

"This thread is dealing with an important, under
discussed and often dismissed issue of female DV to male or female (as mentioned in lesbian relationships)"

Grow up.

@FrippEnos

I find it somewhat amusing that you are trying to gaslight me on a thread about abuse

I completely agree with you. A number of users on this thread have showed up to it to try and bully. Interesting! But I'm sure not a bloody coincidence.