To think the high volume of male abusers means some people find it hard to see when a female is an abuser?

[BraykeDance]

Having experienced first hand fairly extreme abuse from a female, I feel a bit like even in 2023 some people struggle to believe women are capable of extreme psychological, emotional and even physical abuse.

I find often people want to victim blame by implying the man must have deserved it or driven her to it. Amber Heard being a great example of an abuser where I think if she were a man people would see much more clearly that she is an abuser.

I understand men (for reasons I don't understand) have a greater tendency to be abusers in the sense of power and control; but women do this too sometimes.

I found, as someone recovering from such am abuser, that many people minimised it and almost normalised behaviour that would certainly mean prison for a man.

Which made healing as a victim a lot harder. And also made it far easier for the abuser to continue.

AIBU to think we hold women to a different standard and sometimes reframe abusive behaviour or coercive control to fit with the idea of the female victim?

@piscofrisco

I agree with you op. But this is the wrong forum to ask the question. I've given up asking for advice on our situation with dh's highly abusive and manipulative ex wife. Because all the responses are 'well he must have done something wrong to her' and 'you must be an idiot to believe his version of events'. I've literally witnessed her in action. And her version of events was unpicked and found to be false-lots of evidence-in court. Yet still I'm told here that I'm wrong to believe him, and he's the abuser-because he's a man. It's staggering

It's a strange phenomenon, but what this thread has illuminated for me is how strong gender bias can be. People need to be much better educated on abuse. They need to recognise things like manipulation and devaluing and understand the impact on the victim far better than they do.

It's obvious to me almost every abuser makes counter allegations against the victim, and the rather true stereotype is the male abuser who acusses the female victim of being crazy or unstable. That possibly makes it very difficult to discern the difference.

It's great that they criminalised coercive control. I think we need to seriously modernise and update understanding of abuse and the process of more or less breaking another person down.

@Ilovebudgies

For evidence you've got the audios, pictures, testimonies, injuries, witnesses, hospital report and abusers confession that were watched by a jury in court who ALL found her guilty of defamation, but congrats for picking the one part of my paragraph that isn't evidence but just a valid observation

The thing about this that makes me hyperventilate is that it proves beyond all doubt that if a female abuser you, demonstrably, in every sense and you gather iron clad evidence..... you will still be dismissed by some

It's similar to my younger years where women colony speak out on rape or sexual harassment, because some people would hold these views which put then at high risk of not only being dismissed, but perhaps being twisted into the guilty one!

It's hard as well when you have no evidence of what's occured during the relationship as well. I've spoken to the police regarding other matters going on at the moment and they said whether I want to report the abuse and they would support and investigate but like I said to the officer, I don't have any proof and I don't know whether it would make things worse because she currently has the children isolated.

This thread is a mess. Op raised an interesting point and it was broadly being discussed until it all got derailed (op, sorry you did kind of start that) and then deteriorated into the usual arguing that always happens on threads about male victims.

a cynic might think that’s what some parties want

Its always going to get messy when a less powerful group who have collectively suffered greatly from the abuse of a more powerful one, are being encouraged to see the powerful as having equal victim status.
Its a hugely sensitive, controversial topic that needs to be approached with a great deal more nuance than merely repeating over and over that something (Women are abusers! Men are victims!) is true, attacking anyone who doesn't offer enthusiastic agreement, and leading us down a rabbit hole of one celebrity couple about whom there is no consensus.
If the OP hoped from this thread to increase the level of belief for male victims by exploring why they are currently not taken seriously, as suggested by the title, I think its been a resounding fail, as I doubt a single person is any the wiser. Simply hammering home over and again that the abuse happens doesn't touch upon that.
If she hoped to convince people women are as bad as men, again by simply telling us so and shaming those who disagree as not caring for victims; I very much there will have been much movement from people's original stance on that either.

I think it was a genuine attempt to discuss why male victims, who are a minority, find it hard to get heard.

unfortunately a fair few people automatically feel it’s an attempt to say women are as bad as men and forcefully defend against that argument. However, that’s not what was said.

that and the whole JD/AH thing means the substantive point is lost

@FloydPepper

This thread is a mess. Op raised an interesting point and it was broadly being discussed until it all got derailed (op, sorry you did kind of start that)

I really didn't :/ as shown on my post on page 12 there are people here who showed up only to attack / goad / bait anyone for saying Amber Heard was an abuser. They were spoiling for a fight.

I was happy actually to debate the AH point, because as @Ilovebudgies has said, it's central to the topic: if people can't believe someone literally on tape saying they repeatedly hit their husband, then how can any victim be believed?

It's actually pretty central to the point we are trying to discuss. My DP started heavily drinking when it happened to him. He behaved in funny ways that made him probably look unhinged. He pushed her and even dragged her out of the house by her arm when she wouldn't let him escape her. Does that mean he also isn't a victim?

He was also bigger, stronger, more powerful. Does that mean he also wasn't a victim? These are the questions I was really hoping to discuss. Although that's quite hard to do if people came here with very different intentions.

@5128gap

If she hoped to convince people women are as bad as men, again by simply telling us so and shaming those who disagree as not caring for victims; I very much there will have been much movement from people's original stance on that either

As @FloydPepper said "I think it was a genuine attempt to discuss why male victims, who are a minority, find it hard to get heard. Unfortunately a fair few people automatically feel it’s an attempt to say women are as bad as men and forcefully defend against that argument. However, that’s not what was said"

That's what it was. It wasn't a competition:( Admitting females can also be perpetrators doesn't diminish female victims. Thanks @FloydPepper for saying it so well.

@Catsafterme

It's hard as well when you have no evidence of what's occured during the relationship as well. I've spoken to the police regarding other matters going on at the moment and they said whether I want to report the abuse and they would support and investigate but like I said to the officer, I don't have any proof and I don't know whether it would make things worse because she currently has the children isolated

I really want to talk to you about this, but as has been pointed out, this thread is a mess. So I'm going to try, if you can ignore the background noise.

Is she abusive to the children? Are they safe, and just isolated? How old are they? Have you got legal access? Can you apply for it if you don't?

I am really not sure where you go from here :( I've known of two messy divorces where both parents claimed the other one was insane or abusive (neither were) so presumably this is a hard situation because people do lie.

What contact do you have with her? Can you write or speak to her and record it?

@Catsafterme

Just a thought here. Maybe you can make a thread about this. I've got no knowledge of child custody situations. A lot of people here do, and can give sound, practical advice.

I would caution against saying your ex wife is abusive as you will probably end up with a lot of people assuming that you must be the abusive one, but you can still basically say your ex won't let your children have contact with anyone.

It might be worth a shot. I'm not sure if there are any other support groups or organisations that help with this. Maybe others will know more than me.

I know not every situation is the same but I learned a fair bit about the history of the woman who abused us.

She told DP when they met that her ex husband abused her. I understand abusers generally have a "my ex was crazy" backstory and with the knowledge we have now we think it was the other way around.

But she did have a son. Now I never met the son, but I do remember thinking "how the fuck can this raging abusive psycho have a child?" And I was genuinely worried for the kid (who was around 14 at the time).

I looked quite often at her FB to make sure mostly that she hadn't moved and that we were still physically safe, and the son (now 21 probably) seeks fine and interacts with her a lot.

So maybe despite the way she was a terrifying abuser to us, she was fine as a Mum. I really don't know, for all I know she might have screwed the kid up mentally. I am just saying I do not believe she was violent to the child.

Again no idea if this is a common thing. So I am really just wondering if it might be the same here? I hope so. I hope your kids are safe and well.

I dont think there is anywhere here where anyone has mentioned 'equal victim status', why is there this obsession with it being a competition? You can't discuss male victims and the issues they face without someone chiming in that women have it worse.
It's that attitude that attempts to diminish the experiences of male abuse victims.

At an individual level the victim status IS equal, a victim is a victim whether they are male or female. You can't tell a man who has been abused that his abuse is unimportant because he is part of a dominant group.

And I think this is OPs whole point. In her experience (and in mine and many others) people don't take males being abused seriously.

And actually it really angers women that people even want to talk about this. It's like 'how dare you take THEIR side'
There isn't any side to be taken. I am a woman, I have female family members, of course I care about abuse against women, but I equally think there are huge glaring issues with violence against men that need addressing.

The biggest ones being an assumption that women aren't real abusers, that they only really do it when pushed, that the man probably did something first to deserve it, that it's not harmful because they are physically stronger, that abuse only really matters when it's physical.
Most of the abuse my friend has suffered has been coercive and controlling.

Even though he was abused for years, when he left she was livid. She made loads of false claims and family court tends to favour the mother so she has more contact than him.
If he doesn't do everything she asks, she withdraws his contact. She blackmails him into paying for things by threatening to make up stories that will stop him seeing his child. She literally has total control of his life.

But someone now will diminish that by saying 'yeah but most women are left doing everything, most men just walk away and don't pay for their kids, maybe the stories she made up are true'
Etc
And that was another PPs experience, when she posts about her partners abuse, people question whether HE is the abuser, would you ever see that on here in reverse when a woman is talking about being abused...

'My sister got sexually assaulted'
'are you sure she didn't hit him first? Are you sure she's telling the truth?'
Wouldn't happen!

I quoted your whole post. Can you clarify what you meant when you said "market forces" and "most women ridicule those same men until they are either ready to settle down or are done with the bad boys and want some emotional back up to bring up the children that the bad boys have abandoned."

Clearly its not reading how you intended it to.

Depends on the victim too. My mum was physically and emotionally abusive to me and my siblings as young children and older teens. We wear beat regularly with implements, which left severe bruising and even broke the implement (e.g. wooden kitchen spoons - the thick old fashioned ones for mixing). Abuse included choking, which now we are reminded is a risk factor for later death. With one instance of - what would be classed as - sexual assault. She did that out of anger during an outburst of physical abuse.

Looking back, and being an adult, I'm sure she must have beat up our Dad who was very meak and a quiet genuinely lovely man.

I have told dh and one or two exs about this and it is always minimised. So I agree. It's always: but she is such a lovely person. And more general dismissal. For example, one of my exes grew up in a home of very bad husband to wife violence (his parents), he was never physically abused himself, but said it was worse than what me and siblings went through from our mum. He assumed this, he couldn't have known.

It's actually pretty central to the point we are trying to discuss. My DP started heavily drinking when it happened to him. He behaved in funny ways that made him probably look unhinged. He pushed her and even dragged her out of the house by her arm when she wouldn't let him escape her. Does that mean he also isn't a victim?
So this is the kind of thing that's called "bidirectional abuse", as Natalya brought up earlier. And illustrates my problem with the term and the whole issue of "women do it too/women are equally as bad"

When someone reacts physically to the abuse they are suffering, it becomes "bidirectional abuse" and discussed as if both parties are equally at fault. That completely erases the actual dynamic at play.

Unfortunately it suits a certain narrative to refer to bidirectional violence as "women do it too", which then means men like your husband can't discuss their experience.

@GreenMushrooms

I have told dh and one or two exs about this and it is always minimised. So I agree. It's always: but she is such a lovely person. And more general dismissal

I'm really sorry about the abuse and also sorry about this. I can't really grasp how hard it must be to have those closest to you minimise it. I have found actually, only professional counsellors are worth talking to. My family are lovely but can't grasp it at all. Although I wonder if that's true of abuse more generally. Perhaps people can't easily get it. Especially as its a word throw around very easily by some

Ad you said you are happy to discuss the AH point;
If your husbands ex recorded him on tape admitting he pushed her and dragged her out of the house, without her mentioning the surrounding context of what she did, it would sound like he is the abuser. How would you feel about that?

To me, that's why the AH tapes aren't compelling. JD doesn't speak. He doesn't say anything about his side. So you can't draw any conclusions about the circumstances around the violence, which are important as you acknowledge in the case of your husband.

@AdamRyan

My personal view is that you can say or do abusive things and not be an abuser. I've had fights in my life where I've been manipulative. Whi hasn't? I even smacked an ex on the arm once 25 years ago when he was trying to stop me leaving him. I've had exes scream at me and shout. I've been verbally abused. I've had people play head games with me

But none of that is the same as the true cycle of abuse between an abuser and victim. This to me is a pattern of behavior. A cycle of love bombing alternated with abuse that isn't about love, but is about dominating. I've seen this happen and it follows a general pattern, irrespective of gender:

Person meets someone who appears to be amazing and they are flattered, persued, treated like a Queen (or king) and they were quickly let this person into their life.

Then the person sets about creating an environment of dominance. Ensuring the victim is dependent on them. Ensuring they have control over the victims environment. Isolating the victim so they have nobody else.

Then once the victim is in the position they start having outbursts of rage. The victim is left off balance and confused and will wonder what they've done wrong. At this point the abuser introduces mind games. Gaslighting. Blame shifting. Creating a sense of fear.

The victim becomes confused because they love the abuser and just want things to go back to how they were, and they generally begin to struggle psychologically and think they're the problem. They walk on eggshells. They hide the abuse. They defend their abuser.

Meanwhile the abuse often escalates and just gets worse and worse. The victim is taunted and belittled. Broken down to a shadow of themselves. They start to struggle at work, or get mental health issues.

They're desperate because they have no one to talk to and they're isolated and dependent on the abuser. They are stuck, so what they tend to do is just try and keep the abuser sweet. Do what they can to avoid a rage. Their sense of self is by now completely destroyed.

The abuser makes sure they can't leave. By use of threats to destroy their life or loves one's lives, threats of suicide - or just reverting back to love bombing and manipulation and begging and pleading. The victim is now stuck and from what I understand most victims take years to escape - if they ever do.

If they do escape, the abuser will try and ruin their life. Their relationships with others. Their career. Their reputation. They want to make sure the victim is completely destroyed. They often stalk, harrass or find a new partner immediately and tell them that their ex was abusive.

This to me is what an actual abuser is. It's not, to me, the same thing as saying something cruel one day or losing your temper and shouting. To me it's a psychological pattern of control that may or may not involve physical violence.

So I think maybe this is where our views differ. Caroline Flack, for example, might have behaved violently or abusively but by my definition I would not consider her to be an abuser unless I saw a pattern of violence and / or psychological abuse. Its not a label I'd jump to quickly.

I think violence is disgusting. Particularly disgusting, and far worse if its directed at someone smaller or weaker (like a child or woman) and I think if you engage in that (unless in defence), that I'd make an assumption that you are sadistic and getting off on power. Which would cause me to believe you likely would be working within the profile of an abuser (abuse is about power and dominance)

But i don't think you have to be a man to engage in the pattern of dominance and abuse I've described in this post. I don't think being female would make it harder to groom and psychologically destroy another person

I do think, and I don't know why, that men seem to be more likely to do that. Maybe this is to do with power and dominance being more traditionally masculine characteristics. But deficiencies such as NPD or psychopathy occur in women too - which might be linked to what makes a woman become like this.

I dont know. I (and all the therapists we've seen) believe our abuser was a female psychopath. I read a lot of books on it and it ticked every box. But who knows.

Men, perhaps, are not necessarily disordered but just repeating learned behavior? Just thinking out loud.

The point really being that I think you and I probably have different views of abusers. To me, it's what I described above and people can say horrible things or even react to being hit and I still think they're a victim.

You've come to this thread to deliberately derail it, behaved appallingly, tried to accuse other people of what you yourself are doing and are trying to bait / goad and play silly gotcha games with abuse victims

totally unjustified.

Op - in your last post, the paragraph beginning 'if they do escape...', describes exactly what Depp did to heard

@AdamRyan

Ad you said you are happy to discuss the AH point; If your husbands ex recorded him on tape admitting he pushed her and dragged her out of the house, without her mentioning the surrounding context of what she did, it would sound like he is the abuser. How would you feel about that?

You're comparing apples and oranges. In my DPs situation the person who clearly behaved in the ways I listed in the posts above was her. Similarly in the AH / JD situation I feel the same.

I have listened to hours and hours of audio and her testimony. She admits to physical abuse. I don't believe this was "reacting" because its clear across all the recordings that she is taunting him. Even if there had never been any physical violence, I would listen to the audio recordings of her taunting him and belittling him and I would consider her a psychological abuser based on that.

To me, that's why the AH tapes aren't compelling. JD doesn't speak. He doesn't say anything about his side. So you can't draw any conclusions about the circumstances around the violence, which are important as you acknowledge in the case of your husband

I think drawing conclusions is very possible when you look at the situation as a whole. As an abuse victim who has never liked Jonny Depp, I wanted to believe her, but was unable to.

First of all because she was proved to have lied many times. About things people with a bit of decency wouldn't lie about (such as stealing someone else's sexual abuse story) or putting herself out publicly as an ambassador for DV when she knew she was a perpetrator. To me, that's fairly sick and her behaviour of lying will really damage real women.

Second of all, her testimony on the stand doesn't correlate at all with the evidence. She claimed she was "walking on eggshells" to avoid his next outburst. But the tapes show her doing the opposite: she was taunting and goading him. Any true abuser would not have sat there quietly placating her. She also describes trying to get away, but all the recordings and testimony from others showed the opposite.

Thirdly, the language she uses is classic abuse. Laughing at his career. Laughing at his age. Mocking him as not a real man. This is what devaluing abuse looks and sounds like.

Fourthly, her behavior pattern fits completely coherently with an abuser. Minimising. Blaming. Alternating between psychological abuse and begging him not to leave her. As does the pattern of trying to come out as a DV victim to ruin his life once he left her.

To me, it's completely cut and dried. I agree with @Ilovebudgies that it's simply not believable that he did all these things but she never mentions them. There's no evidence at all that he did the things she says. Whereas accusations against her tally up with the material evidence as well as her general behavior.

I understand he's a highly unsympathetic character. Would I be supposed if he DID hit her when he was drugged up? Not really. It doesn't change the fact that I have seen sufficient evidence to satisfy my pretty high bar definition of her being a psychological and physical abuser.

I don't demand everyone agrees with me. It is blatantly obvious to me though. And I think actually what AH did is misogyny. If I'd been a DV survivor who listened to her public speaking at an event and then heard those tapes I'd feel sick. She hijacked the me too movement. She made it that bit harder for the next truly innocent person to be believed.

I find that genuinely heartbreaking, because she actually seems to me to be everything an abusive man wants to pretend his ex was. I feel like it's a real shame she was ever in the public eye to be honest.

@Sigmama

Op - in your last post, the paragraph beginning 'if they do escape...', describes exactly what Depp did to heard

I disagree.

First of all, I believe he is the one who escaped. On every tape discussing that topic, he is the one saying he doesn't want to be together and (I'd have to Google to check) I think there's messages or recordings of her begging him not to and indicating she can't survive without him.

She is the one who tried to ruin his life. She went to the police and the newspapers and started telling everyone. I think he was dropped by Disney. As was shown in the trial while she was at court trying to get a restraining order, she was also incessantly messaging him!

He just refused to sit silently while she lied and dragged him through the mud.

@BraykeDance I think in my case there has to be something underlying because it's towards everyone and has been consistent. Every single bridge has been burned one by one.

I have no contact at all with her or the children and neither does the entire family, nobody knows how they are. I can't go back to our house or contact outside of solicitors. I've not been arrested or anything ordering me not to other than legal threats if I do, then will use it as ammunition.

I don't have legal aid, I'm paying private which is fine but she is using legal aid for letters so far, not sure it has it for court yet. Although been told to communicate through solicitors they aren't responding and when they do it's smoke and mirrors blocking access.

So nobody has said to stop contact, no police, social services or court order she's just done it and has done multiple times to others. It's basically, you're cut off now you are not a part of mine or the children's lives.

I have apparently in the space of ten days six months ago, become so dangerous I can't see her or them, treating me like I've come out of prison. She's playing the victim but all her actions so far and behavior is irrational and illogical. I've already proved she's lied, as she did report me to the police for going over to check the children were okay. I recorded it but she said something entirely different to paint me as dangerous and they have taken it as evidence and see she has lied to them.

Court is starting soon, Cafcass have spoken to me but not had the report yet. However, she sounded concerned and has raised it to management as she believes a child protection plan needs to be put in place. Along with children report and psychological reports on us both. So, fingers crossed it's being seen as an extreme case of isolation, along with a very warped view of parenting.

@Catsafterme

I wish I knew more about this so I could answer you. I think you need to ask the question separately. Lots of women here probably know a lot about how it works. They will have brothers, friends or husbands dealing with being blocked access to their children.

I wish I could offer more helpful advice or information to you.

First of all because she was proved to have lied many times. About things people with a bit of decency wouldn't lie about (such as stealing someone else's sexual abuse story) or putting herself out publicly as an ambassador for DV when she knew she was a perpetrator. To me, that's fairly sick and her behaviour of lying will really damage real women.

She was proven to have lied...because you don't believe her? Circular reasoning much? And the idea she stole someone else's sexual assault testimony has been totally debunked. It's really difficult to take your (no doubt passionately held) opinions seriously when you get basic stuff like that wrong.

"No abuser would..." "No real victim would..."
Just STOP. You are NOT an expert on domestic violence/ abuse. You are an expert on your experience only, and apparently projecting that onto Amber Heard based on a few snapshots at the very end of the relationship, when Depp knew very well he was being recorded. The only times I'm aware of that he didn't know, are the footage of his drunken raging with the cupboards, and another one where he yelled the most horrible, degrading insults at her and then switched it up really quickly when he realised she was recording. Devaluing abuse as you put it, but maybe that only counts when it's done by a nasty screeching harpy? 'Any true abuser' who was a) on Xanax and b) knowingly being recorded might behave a little differently to the way they would at other times.

There's a reason hundreds of acknowledged domestic abuse specialists and experts signed an open letter in support of her after the trial in Virginia. Do you think you actually know better than they do?

@BraykeDance Yeah, it's alright I'm just biding my time. I have a lot of weight in terms of behavior and evidence after separation that I think would sway my account through the marriage. At some points I have witnesses so some nasty behavior but nothing abuse wise against me as we were isolated only my word.

It's hard because you try and say she isn't rational, very volatile I don't even know what she is capable of. She's done things to me that would be alarming but again I can't prove it, hopefully that won't extend to the children.

This is spot on, thank you for posting this. I entirely agree that she has done so much damage to the #metoo movement.
To me your conclusion are so obvious, I find the taunting and cackling and belittling really hard to listen to, I think it's because I've experienced it myself in the past. I find it really hard to understand how someone can listen to that and not realise it is someone being psychologically abusive, even if you discount all tne other evidence entirely.