To think the high volume of male abusers means some people find it hard to see when a female is an abuser?

[BraykeDance]

Having experienced first hand fairly extreme abuse from a female, I feel a bit like even in 2023 some people struggle to believe women are capable of extreme psychological, emotional and even physical abuse.

I find often people want to victim blame by implying the man must have deserved it or driven her to it. Amber Heard being a great example of an abuser where I think if she were a man people would see much more clearly that she is an abuser.

I understand men (for reasons I don't understand) have a greater tendency to be abusers in the sense of power and control; but women do this too sometimes.

I found, as someone recovering from such am abuser, that many people minimised it and almost normalised behaviour that would certainly mean prison for a man.

Which made healing as a victim a lot harder. And also made it far easier for the abuser to continue.

AIBU to think we hold women to a different standard and sometimes reframe abusive behaviour or coercive control to fit with the idea of the female victim?

Your definition of psychosis is wrong. I don’t necessarily disagree with the point you’re making but you don’t know anything about psychosis.

This is such a difficult and nuanced and complex issue.

Firstly, to go through your points. Johnny Depp was abusive to Amber Heard, so you can't use that as an example.

I have worked with many female survivors of dv and often men are deemed as almost not being able to help themselves. It's often portrayed in court as a 'crime of passion', of jealousy or anger and the male in question was simply unable to control his emotions because he was- a man. And it glazes over details that to me prove that he was actually in full control and it was a highly controlled and intentional act.

I think one of the problems is that male perpetrators will regularly accuse their female victim and make out that they are the abuser in a way to isolate that person from family/ friends, garner support and undermine the actual victim's credibility and dissuade them from seeking help for fear of not being believed. Sometimes victims of ongoing abuse (even abuse that never becomes physical) will hit their limit and lash out at the abuser in an act of self preservation. If police/ hospital become involved then statistically this is recorded as female to male dv when actually - it was male to female abuse and self preservation.

We have to protect women from this and we need to believe women when they ask for help because every 21 seconds police respond to a dv incident and every 2 weeks a woman is killed in the UK by a known partner. The rates of female to male violence are much much smaller and I don't fully buy it when people say that it happens just as frequently because the majority of dv stats come from other services such as police responding to a noise complaint than a victim actually lifting the phone to report. Female to male violence also encompasses family violence and any female to male violence not just intimate partner violence which is different.

You and your partner have had a horrific time and I've no doubt it has had a significant impact on you both. Stalking needs more research and it's only recently that police etc have been given more powers to deal with it.

I do think there are some differences in that when a male stalks a female, its much more likely unfortunately that the female will be murdered. Male abuse and stalking is more likely to become violent and fatal so it is taken more seriously because the consequences can be so extreme. Also its normalised in society. Its normalised for a man to beat his wife when it shouldn't be. Its not normalised for a woman to stalk and cause real fear in a male. Often because women aren't seen as a serious threat physically, and also because often men who have treated women badly will spin stories of the 'crazy ex' to their friends/ family/ new partner when actually she's rightfully hurt and reacting to his behaviour.

Obviously any and all victims of abuse should receive support but there are certain additional vulnerabilities that we face as women that can't be ignored.

I think what you're describing OP is Patriarchy's own goal in an otherwise flawless game.
Men have deliberately presented themselves as strong, powerful and brave, and women as weak mild and powerless. Because in almost all contexts that is beneficial to them. Unfortunately when some men encounter situations where for whatever reason the power balance flips, they become the collateral damage of the perpetuation of attitudes and beliefs created by men, for men.

YANBU but this is MN so you will be vilified

Already 2 people have excused AH because "JD was abusive". Except... for all the lies she made about him, the supposed proof which was nothing more than a few banging doors and the fact she CUT HIS DAMN FINGER OFF! It wasn't a great relationship but she was definitely the major abuser there.

I've stopped posting on MN because trying to point out that women abusers are minimised and that they can be harmful has gotten me all sorts of insults and called a man etc...

I even posted some stats and was essentially called a liar.

My male abuser psychologically tortured me. As well as physically strangled me (on top of pretty much every type of abuse you can think of) he made me feel like I was going insane. And threatened me will all sorts if I dared to report him/leave him. He had other people thinking I was the crazy one too. That is NOT exclusive to female abusers and it's incredibly insulting to say that

You are massively simplifying the JD/AH case and leaving out a ton of stuff. It's not a good example.

Did she cut off part of his finger and blatantly say she would get away with it because no one would believe him?

She is an abuser. There's no question there. She also didn't suffer anywhere near the ruin to her career JD has. So it's relevant

I am so sorry you went through that.

I just want to clarify what I meant I did not mean males are not able to or do not psycholicically torture their victims. They of course do and it is a huge component to domestic abuse.
What I meant was that in this component of domestic abuse ie the non physical side of it that women can be incredibly manipulative and controlling. And some women are often better at it then males. I didn't mean that males don't also use psychological means to control

TBH being treated ‘atrociously’ as a victim of DV is standard for women also. I have no idea what experience you’re drawing on to think that male abusers get significant penalties either. The vast vast vast majority walk around freely with zero repercussions.

I’m not sure you know enough about this to have an opinion on any differences in treatment of male and female victims.

@Lavender14

Firstly, to go through your points. Johnny Depp was abusive to Amber Heard, so you can't use that as an example

See this is where the unconscious bias plats in. Amber Heard was the abuser. There was evidence of manipulation, gaslighting, grooming, lovebombing, isolating, coercive control, FOG, DARVO and even serious physical violence. There are tapes of her gloating, telling him no one will believe him and him - quite literally - hiding in the bathroom to get away. No victim of abuse is chasing their abuser around hiding in the bathroom!

He might or might not have been violent, but I doubt it given the recorded conversations I heard where she admitted it and called him a baby. But even if there was, she was DEFINITELY the abuser. You can't have mutual abuse. One person is scared and trapped in the cycle of abuse, and the other person is controlling it.

It's often portrayed in court as a 'crime of passion', of jealousy or anger and the male in question was simply unable to control his emotions because he was- a man. And it glazes over details that to me prove that he was actually in full control and it was a highly controlled and intentional act

Absolutely, but grooming and coercive control is a pattern! Courts should look at the power dynamic as a whole and understand abuse isn't about jealousy or passion. It's about control and scaring someone.

We have to protect women from this and we need to believe women when they ask for help because every 21 seconds police respond to a dv incident and every 2 weeks a woman is killed in the UK by a known partner

I completely agree and I'm not for a minute diminishing this.

Some women are better at it than males, yeah better at it than non-abusive males 🙄 abusive women are not more manipulative and controlling than abusive men.

@Dramatic

My male abuser psychologically tortured me. As well as physically strangled me (on top of pretty much every type of abuse you can think of) he made me feel like I was going insane. And threatened me will all sorts if I dared to report him/leave him. He had other people thinking I was the crazy one too. That is NOT exclusive to female abusers and it's incredibly insulting to say that

I am so sorry you experienced that and you're quite right. I think the point being made (poorly) is that physical size and strength isn't required to abuse someone.

What you describe is exactly what this woman did to DP, and obviously its some pattern of behaviour with abusers of both sexes

I fear/have feared men far more than women in my life, on a purely physical basis - female's don't even come close, but accept that is just my experience

You are so right OP.
My DP was abused by his ex for over a decade. Physically, punches to the head, kicked, but also psychological abuse and control, and extreme verbal abuse. Every couple of weeks, for over a decade.
No one gives a damn.
She's there presenting herself as the victim because he eventually left - because he left and 'destroyed her vision of the rest of their lives'. (This is although he's supporting her and will be for life.)
It didn't matter a jot to anybody else, all her friends, acquaintances and relatives don't give a damn.
This is despite the fact that it's all known, there's even a recording of her admitting to it but of course saying that it wasn't that bad.
His kids don't care (actually they've both gone onto punch him in the face over the years - not surprising, since they were always in the house when she was assaulting him).
Even his mother said she didn't want to take sides.
The ex is an abuser, but it's been completely swiped under the carpet.

Again, this happens with male abusers too. None of what's been said here is because the abuser was female, this is how DV relationships are and it's often how they end. Also people around male abusers act the same, most families will "not take sides" and the abuser goes on to other people how the victim ruined their life.

@Dramatic I dont think anyone is at all suggesting male abusers aren't as bad. Even the title of the thread explicitly says they are predominantly the gender responsible for these abuse dynamics.

This is just about the fact many people struggle to accept female abuse exists, or that it can be as bad. Which is tragic. The horror you've suffered happens to men too.

I remember seeing this advert sometime ago showing the difference in how ordinary people view domestic violence depending whether the victim is female or male.

What was sad is seeing passers by actually laughing about w.

Maybe they do. Maybe the woman was displaying reactive abuse and is the victim really. Maybe men are most likely to abuse women more so than men.
Maybe men abusing woman is so desensitised and accepted that when a woman does it to a man she is demonised far more.

The abuse by men is frequent and a majority of us have been affected by both low level and more intrusive abuses by males.

Men seem driven by their male sex hormones and porn addled sexual desires to attack, pester and subjugate women. Obviously bot all men are like this. But many are, and many are obviously good at hiding their true desires and what they are capable of.

I'm sorry for what happened to you. I'm sorry you felt your life was in danger. The odd woman is abusive and terrifying.

But men are far more commonly capable of actually causing bodily harm. They frequently do.

I hope you get justice and peace from what youve suffered.

But men are more often the abusers. Both in frequency and severity.

Women are more often the victims. And when a women does act in an abusive way, her history is almost always chequered with male abuse. I think that deserves some acknowledgement. And consideration when considering her actions.

I guess the lack of people intervening is probably because they can clearly see that the man is physically able to defend himself whereas the woman isn't. The laughing is awful though, but I wonder if people could tell it was set up.

Its telling that this thread asking about female abusers has become talking about male abuse and stories about suffering at the hands of females and feeling helpless because they are female and aren't thought to be capable of abuse have become "but men do that too...."

If this thread was the other way around, or rather when, and female abusers are mentioned when talking about male abuse then the outcry is huge....

Really?

I don't see a man able to defend himself. I see a scared man backing away from abuse. And I bet if the man had pushed her away or reacted physically then people would have been rushing to HER defence...

The op brought male abusers into it with her thread title and question...

The comparison was there at the outset, the whole question was based on it.

My view is that there are abusive people across the board. However, out of the two I would say there are far more abusive men than women and they would have the tendency to pose a greater risk, or capability of it, maybe.

Having experienced abuse from a woman I know myself that it happens and in my case it was violent at times but mostly psychological and emotional. It's hard trying to prove that because it isn't the norm, people don't generally think of that scenario being possible.

Regardless of my experience, I've come across far more abusive, creepy or potentially dangerous men in my time than I have women. In fact I've only come across one, so.

@1dayatatime that's sad, but at the same time I think it's a terrible advert. Abuse isn't really about pushing someone :( it's a pattern of psychological complete destruction. I wish they would educate the public much more on the emotional and psychological abuse that is often the worst element and what keeps abuse victims silent. As @Dramatic said, the sheer terror inflicted through manipulation and grinding you down and telling everyone you're crazy