This is the Handmaids Tale in real-time

[Crapsummer2023]

If I were living in Texas, I’d start making moves to leave soon.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/28/texas-lawyer-abortion-ban-procedure-patient-information

I'm afraid this does read as a total copout. Of course you are not obliged to share personal information; however, your silence will cause readers to draw their own conclusions. On the subject of abortion, personal circumstances are everything, because the implications of it - and of banning it - can only be understood at a personal level. Many posters here have shared their sensitive personal experiences to illustrate why abortion rights are utterly critical.

To deny them leads to evil being done in the name of good. Several posters on here have explained how denying abortion rights lead to increased human suffering and indeed, deaths. But at least the self-styled 'pro-lifers' get to feel good about themselves; which is something I suppose because it is probably the only benefit for overall human happiness.

'I can proudly say I am a Christian'.

Such an odd turn of phrase. I identify as a Christian and it doesn't occur to me to be proud of it. For the avoidance of doubt; the Bible is silent on the subject of abortion. And this despite the fact it has always been practised, since ancient times.

I agree completely. If you hold views like these, you lack whatever it is that makes the rest of us human. Unfortunately that lack also comes with a total lack of insight.

Obviously it's a bloke. From the USA too I'm guessing, due to some of the references given. He could at least be honest.

For those that have had abortions, please know that you’re loved more than you could ever imagine by God. Whether you believe it or not he loves you an infinite amount. If you have a second shoot him up a prayer he’s always listening and desperate for you to speak to him - he’s your father who made you and watched over you from womb till now and absolutely delights in you.

I wish I understood people who believe in this. How does such an infinitely loving and omnipotent being allow babies to develop without lungs so that, if they survive birth, they will simply suffocate and die? And, if it does, how does it then proclaim that it is wrong to prevent that suffering? I've never yet seen an explanation that remotely works.

He, he, he ..... Father.

Why male?

Because we've lived in a male dominated society, because men had the power?

Apparently man is made in the image of God.

But we know that y chromosomes only have the information necessary to turn a fetus male, everything else - every single instruction is on the X chromosome, the female chromosome. This is why males will suffer eg haemophiliac or types of muscular dystrophy, but not females - who have two x chromosomes to make up for faults on one.

Males also have nipples because the prototype, original fetus is female.

So why is god male?

Also, how also can a woman, with womb, ovaries and vagina - be made after a man who has the corresponding eg reproductive organs?? So it was figured out how to build reproduction into a human male, and how it would work perfectly with a corresponding human (female) without creating the female?

Or was he not a man like he is now, did he have no sexual organs?

Or was the blueprint for the female made at the same time but for inexplicable reasons held back and not released with human male 1.1? No, because we are told females were made from a man's rib bone, and after him -to give him company.

Except that's not physically possible - with two creatures - animals - with corresponding reproductive organs.

A narrative invented and written by men, for men.

I've been following this thread, but as yet haven't commented.

You won't receive an explanation, because it is not rational. A 'pro-life' stance is curiously anti-life when it comes to the fundamental human rights of women.

When our rights are viewed to be in direct conflict with another vulnerable group (or a group that isn't necessarily vulnerable but paints itself as such, which of course is another argument) - women always lose. The lives of women matter less than the lives of others. And, despite the fact that sex is a clearly defined characteristic under the 2010 Equality Act, and that hate speech and verbally articulated prejudice against all other charactersitics is defined as a criminal offence, misogyny is not a hate crime. This tells us everything we need to know about the way society views us. It tells us why feminism and women's rights movements are not obsolete, but are more necessary now than they have perhaps been for a century past. The pushback, horrible prejudice and silencing tactics used against such women's protests - or even under-the-radar meetings - are evidence enough that little has changed and we've even gone backwards by a significant margin since the second wave.

There are many Christians on this thread who don't talk in the misogynist terms of assuming complete bodily autonomy on behalf of other human beings. This is the religion which persecuted women for witchcraft. And amongst the many groups of women, aside from those who ere older or independent, some of those who came in for the worst of it were herbalists, faith healers and - you guessed it - midwives.

Why would I, a pagan, for one moment accept a Christian rule of law over my own bodily autonomy? They've been doing this to women for quite long enough. Women on the other side of the Atlantic have my heartfelt sympathy and solidatarity. That such a thing could be happening to them, in a supposedly civilized, developed nation in 2023, defies all reason and compassion altogether.

For the avoidance of doubt; the Bible is silent on the subject of abortion. And this despite the fact it has always been practised, since ancient times.

Exactly

Abortion was practiced at the time various parts of the bible were written. However, unlike many other parts of life the Bible does dictate, it doesn't mention abortion. Therefore to me, it makes sense that Christianity is actually pro choice

The bible doesn't dictate that abortions should occur in certain circumstances, it doesn't dictate that abortions shouldn't occur in certain circumstances it leaves it up to the free choice of the individual. You can't really get any more pro choice than that.

And whether or not the bible was pro choice, pro life, forced birth or anything inbetween is highly irrelevant. As I don't feel laws should be based on one religion over another or no religion at all. And I notice @Babochan88 neatly skipped the questions about how they would feel if other people's religious beliefs were forced upon them through law. I have a feeling they would not be quite so happy about that.

It takes an incredible amount of arrogance to believe that your one interpretation of the bible and religion is the only one that could possibly be correct. An amount of arrogance that is actually discussed and condemned in the bible (unlike abortion)

Perhaps @Babochan88 should pay a little more attention to things like this:

Everyone who is arrogant in heart is an abomination to the Lord; be assured, he will not go unpunished

Or this

I will put an end to the pomp of the arrogant, and lay low the pompous pride of the ruthless.

Rather than thinking the deaths of millions of women is justifiable because boys might be born from their deaths.

Indeed. These views date from a time when it really was believed that women were just incubators for human life; that the father provided the seed and the mother just the soil where he chose to 'plant' his children.

This was from a time before discovery of the ovaries and the reality that a child has the genetic inheritance of both parents. But some peoples' views have never caught up.

The 'pro-life' anti abortion arguments derive from male hostility towards, and contempt for, women. It is not even about the best interests of the child (we already know they don't care about the mother) it is about claiming ownership of their genetic 'property'. Whether they like it or not, anti-abortion campaigners are misogynists.

Oh my God @SchoolQuestionnaire that would be laughable if it wasn't so fucking awful. So what, foetuses have rights if the woman wants to get rid of them, but not if they don't? Making it ever-clearer that it's not about "babies", it's about women. And hating women.

It is often women who have been through pregnancy and childbirth and know what it entails, who are most insistent of the right to an abortion, regardless of whether they have actually had one themselves. That is certainly the case for me.

Several women have posted their own stories on this thread. Here's mine:

At around 26 weeks of pregnancy I started to feel ill, was diagnosed with pre-eclampsia which couldn't be controlled. If the pregnancy had continued both I and DS would be dead. I have never forgotten the terror I felt when I thought I really might die.

Just a few weeks earlier and I might have been facing an abortion to save my life. As it was, one emergency CS later and I was recovering but DS was fighting for his life. He did recover though has severe lifelong physical and learning difficulties. We are good now...but even though he was a much wanted baby and I was in a stable personal and family situation, the whole experience taxed my mental health to the limit. It would probably have been too much for a more vulnerable mother - and the idea of her being unwillingly pregnant doesn't bear thinking about.

It is in my view immoral for any so called 'pro-lifer' to demand that any woman should be denied an abortion and risk having to go through experiences like these. It is just too much to demand of any other human being. But then these people don't see women as human beings do they?

@Livingtothefull i completely agree with you. I might have thought differently before I had children (but never really thought much about it so can say what my opinion would have been)

but now I have them and have actually been through a scary complicated pregnancy, as well as multiple miscarriages…. I wouldn’t judge anyone for making whatever decision they make. I know how it feels to be faced with something uncontrollable and scary, and the toll it takes on you.

it’s so easy for people to say “I would do X” or “you should do X” when they or someone close have never walked that path.

I am glad you are your son are well 💖

I think the majority of mnetters here believe in the freedom of choice and, like the OP are appalled by events in mysoginistic patriarchal parts of the US and there is nothing to be gained by debating the issue with blinkered apologists. That pro-lifers have murdered and injured medics working in clinics says it all

Thanks so much @CostelloJones , yes we are both well and in a good place now. Thanks for asking, I hope all is OK with you too.

I thought this too, but it is really very creepy that they’re monitoring a UK website originally aim at mothers (parents). Sort of faux genuine engagement in the posts before going full on evangelical proselytising.

Based on previous threads I think that disappointingly that poster is actually a woman. Confusingly they've had aesthetic surgery for cosmetic reasons only, which seems hugely hypocritical considering their views on interfering with god's designs and works in other cases like the ones discussed on this thread.

How would these people know confidently if the mother’s life is truly at risk? Perhaps medically, yes but certainly not mentally, emotionally, financially… have there been studies into whether the women forced to give birth to unwanted babies have suffered significantly? Been trapped in abusive situations, leading to their deaths? Been suicidal?
There is no way to predict the ways in which a woman’s life is at risk from being a forced incubator for an unwanted child.

In fact, studies have shown that from the 70s to 2010s, restricted access to abortions may have increased the risk of suicide among women of reproductive age.

In addition , studies have found that successfully accessing abortion leads to feelings of relief, not regret, whereas denial of abortion results in increased stress and anxiety.

It seems that when you take away their healthcare, women’s lives are inevitably risked. So yes, abortion can and does save women’s lives.

A long-term study among women seeking abortion in the U.S concluded that “having a baby with an abusive man, compared to terminating the unwanted pregnancy, makes it harder to leave the abusive relationship.

Lack of abortion once again, risking women’s lives.

Certainly risking their wellbeing - although that is something forced-birthers don’t care about.

I can certainly confirm that the overwhelming emotion I felt after my abortion was relief. To this day (more than 20 years later).

"If I can't abort my healthy baby at 38 weeks for no reason other than I woke up in a mood today, it's literally the Handmaid's Tale!!"

I guarantee not ONE person freaking out about these laws has read the actual laws, just leftist drivel about how horrible Texas is because we think you should have a medical reason for aborting your baby after a certain point. Literally EVERY law specifies exceptions in cases of rape and incest. EVERY one. And this inane garbage that you can't "abort" an ectopic pregnancy is just lies. Those aren't viable pregnancies and as such are not considered abortions. But don't you DARE suggest adoption, a choice which gives an unending gift of love to a family who desperately wants it, because.... reasons. Yeah, Texas is a terrible place.

Believe it, we're having gun fights and slave auctions all day every day here, so everyone should definitely NOT move to Texas. It's a regular hellscape. Move to California, where the state can forcibly remove your child if a teacher or school counselor who has known your child for 20 minutes wants to transition them to a different gender, and there are no stores because crime is so bad, because you can abort your baby even after he or she is born. 🙄

You know what? Never mind. I don't want to help people this staggeringly ignorant and bigoted. Especially not someone who thinks it's great to kill a child.

''Anti-abortion violence is a kind of violence committed against individuals and organizations that perform abortions or provide abortion counseling. Incidents of violence have included destruction of property, including vandalism; crimes against people, including kidnapping, stalking, assault, attempted murder, and murder; and crimes affecting both people and property, as well as arson and terrorism, such as bombings.''

''Anti-abortion extremists are considered a current domestic terrorist threat by the United States Department of Justice. Most documented incidents have occurred in the United States, though they have also occurred in Australia, Canada, and New Zealand. G. Davidson Smith of Canadian Security Intelligence Service defined anti-abortion violence as single-issue terrorism. A study of 1982–87 violence considered the incidents "limited political" or "sub-revolutionary" terrorism.''

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence

And that's before you get to 'inflicting death on women by removing access to abortion.'

Leaving already…? 🚪

I do wish people understood statistics. And credited women with a little intelligence. Women seeking abortion tend to try to have them as early as possible. The way some states are trying to make it more difficult leads to later abortions, not earlier.

And no one on here wants to kill children.