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12
MustBeNapTime · 01/10/2023 21:13

@Babochan88
You have said you won't answer personal questions, such as whether you have children, you have said you can't answer other questions of a medical or political nature, however, even though I answered your question back on page 6, you have carefully chosen NOT to answer mine back to you, so here it is again...:

Could you really stand there and watch a tiny baby screaming in agony dying in front of you for hours, maybe days before it finally writhes its last, rather than it going peacefully without any knowledge of such horror?

So... could you? Honestly? Whether your own or even a total strangers? Or do you just think OTHERS should have to because you have decided they have to go through with a birth?

Babochan88 · 01/10/2023 21:20

There are so many questions lobbied at me. Its hard to keep up

Right now there are many people dying agonising deaths. I’m not going to take their lives because I don’t have the right to. - babies included.

Abortion can be a painless procedure for the baby (however not 100% certain on that). But there are times that during an abortion a baby can be born alive. So this is another circumstance where what you’re describing could happen…

Babochan88 · 01/10/2023 21:20

@MustBeNapTime pls see above

DemelzaRobins · 01/10/2023 21:23

Babochan88 · 01/10/2023 19:20

The Christian view is that nobody has the right to end a life.

Show quote history

So, what about ectopics? Should we treat them or leave mothers to die of internal bleeding?

ghostyslovesheets · 01/10/2023 21:25

But there are times that during an abortion a baby can be born alive

nope

monsteramunch · 01/10/2023 21:28

@Babochan88

As Christians we believe that God loves everyone and that taking the life of another is wrong. Jesus (God in the flesh) called taking another’s life wrong.

So why are you unable to say that you believe even if a mother will definitely die as a result of pregnancy or birth, she should have to carry to term and give birth?

If you truly believe in that teaching, why is there a grey area for you?

GodDammitCecil · 01/10/2023 21:29

Pro-choice is the only possibly option.

Because it enables every woman (literally the only people who can get pregnant and consider abortions) to live by her own moral code, and make the decision that is best for her.

if a women is one of the many religions in the world other than Christianity, or is agnostic or an atheist, or does not believe in the sanctity of life - she is free to make a choice that suits her and will ensure her wellbeing.

If a woman feels an abortion is untenable - pro-choice works, because she can choose to continue with the pregnancy.

If a woman is vehemently pro-life and would rather give birth to a baby with a condition that is incompatible with life - she is free to make that choice.

If a woman would prefer her baby to live, suffer and die - that is her choice to freely make.

The only people for whom pro-choice doesn’t work, is men who believe their moral code is absolute and should be forced upon all women.

Those people have no credibility in this discussion.

monsteramunch · 01/10/2023 21:29

What's your view on ectopic pregnancies @Babochan88?

Passepartoute · 01/10/2023 21:32

Babochan88 · 01/10/2023 19:26

We don’t know that as a matter of fact.

Many children born to tough situations go on and thrive in life and many don’t thrive. But you cannot tell the outcome of someone’s life and you don’t have the right to make that judgement.

For the ones that don’t thrive, it’s important to work at all levels and aspects of human life. To provide, help support, guidance, financial help, legislation, accommodation etc. Which is what many pro lifers are doing - employed or volunteering

Show quote history

There are cases where we know as a matter of fact that, if a mother is forced to carry on with a pregnancy, she will die. Ectopic pregnancies are a classic example.

Babochan88 · 01/10/2023 21:33

RampantIvy · 01/10/2023 19:39

Respectfully I can proudly say I am a Christian.

@Babochan88 if you genuinely are a Christian you clearly don't live by Christian principles.

What does the Bible say about forgiveness and Judgement?
Luke 6:37 – “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven.” Matthew 7:1 – “Judge not, that you not be judged.”

You are an unforgiving, judgemental, pro forced birther who thinks that all babies should be born no matter what the cost.

Go away and take your archaic, mysogynistic beliefs elsewhere. You are not welcome here.

Christians should never judge anyone - That is condemning someone as bad awful etc.

However we can naturally exercise judgement in many different areas ie,

  • Making judgements to keep ourselves safe - not walking down dodgy looking alleys at night
  • Judging when an action is wrong; ie theft, taking someone’s life etc

those are some amongst many ways in which we exercise judgement.

Human beings need to judge things to keep ourselves safe and other people safe too. However we are not meant to judge others - I’m deffo the least person to have any leg to stand on. I’m nowhere near perfect.

I’m definitely not unforgiving, so I’m unsure where you got that?

I’m simply I’m a person who loves people and wants people to live in freedom love and protection. Regardless of what religion gender sect etc

Additionally I’m a person that will fight to the death for children. Because one day we will all have to give an account for everything we’ve done on Earth. I love you enough to speak truth.

DrBlackbird · 01/10/2023 21:35

Thank you to all the women articulating their positions and sharing their difficult personal circumstances. In this way, I appreciate that @Babochan88 stayed on the thread if only to read others’ responses.

That includes those who are Christian and expressing support for a woman’s right to choose. When I was active in the Church, one aspect that appalled me was the intolerance and judgemental attitude of many so-called Christians who were highly selective about which preachings of Jesus they followed.

It also amazes me that Christians adhere literally to the writings of men from 2000 years ago when it comes to women’s rights, but very happy to make use of 21st C technologies / medicines when they need it themselves.

If Christians are meant to adhere to the literal texts of the bible, then why don’t they all hate their family? "Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them, He said, 'If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters — yes, even their own life — such a person cannot be my disciple,'" Luke 14:25-26.

It’s all cherry picking.

In any event,@Babochan88 you stated that you were aghast at such a sweeping generalisation. Honestly.

How do you reconcile being aghast at some sweeping generalisations, but perpetuate others (all abortions in the UK ought to be illegal). Honestly? You still persist in adhering to that particular sweeping generalisation in spite of being faced here with lived experience by women, mothers, who would’ve lost their lives or having to choose between losing a viable healthy foetus and terminating one unviable twin?

NB Babochan88 has already implied that s/he is a parent.

lifeturnsonadime · 01/10/2023 21:35

I’m simply I’m a person who loves people and wants people to live in freedom love and protection. Regardless of what religion gender sect etc

Only you don't. You don't love women.

You don't think women should live with freedom of choice.

ghostyslovesheets · 01/10/2023 21:36

I’m simply I’m a person who loves people and wants people to live in freedom love and protection

well that's simply not true because you want to deny women access to safe medical care, autonomy over their bodies and criminalise them when they exercise their rights.

If you really care about children - concentrate on the ones who are here, alive and in need rather then going after their mothers.

MustBeNapTime · 01/10/2023 21:37

Babochan88 · 01/10/2023 21:20

@MustBeNapTime pls see above

@Babochan88
No, that's not an answer to my question you are simply stating circumstances. You said way back up the thread that even if the baby is definitely not going to survive in the world that a baby MUST still be given birth to and not painlessly allowed to sleep with care and dignity. So I ask you again, simply yes or no, could YOU stand there and watch a tiny baby screaming in agony and dying in front of you. Could you stand to hear those screams and watch that baby unable to get breath in their tiny body, twisting in agony and think that's okay? Because that is what you are asking mothers, fathers and medical practitioners to do! And if you say yes, you could, because you don't have the right to take a life in those circumstance then you are beyond words, it is an utterly abhorrent stance and you are definitely not a true Christian, how could you be so cruel? I'm an atheist, but surely Christianity at it's heart is about easing the suffering of others? And if you say no, you couldn't, then can I ask why you expect anyone else to?

Passepartoute · 01/10/2023 21:42

Babochan88 · 01/10/2023 21:20

There are so many questions lobbied at me. Its hard to keep up

Right now there are many people dying agonising deaths. I’m not going to take their lives because I don’t have the right to. - babies included.

Abortion can be a painless procedure for the baby (however not 100% certain on that). But there are times that during an abortion a baby can be born alive. So this is another circumstance where what you’re describing could happen…

As a matter of law, if you had the appropriate qualifications you would have the right to spare that baby that experience by terminating the pregnancy. You would also have the right to prescribe effective painkilling drugs to a person dying an agonising death even though they would probably shorten life.

Would it really be Christian to stand back in both situations and do nothing?

pointythings · 01/10/2023 21:46

I’m simply I’m a person who loves people and wants people to live in freedom love and protection

Well no, you don't want women to live in freedom. At least have the balls to admit that.

And it's none of your business what happens to the rest of us after we die. That's just patronising bullshit. If there is an afterlife (I do not believe there is) then we will all answer for what we did in life - and it's absolutely nothing to do with you.

GodDammitCecil · 01/10/2023 21:47

NB Babochan88 has already implied that s/he is a parent.

That was not my question.

Babochan88 · 01/10/2023 21:50

CostelloJones · 01/10/2023 18:14

I am sure you are going to throw “thou shalt not kill” at me @Babochan88 so I am. It going to bite in that front. I will discuss a couple of lessons with you if I may

“Thus says the Lord of hosts, render true judgements, show kindness and mercy to one another, do not oppress the widow, the fatherless, the sojourner, or the poor, and let none of you devise evil against another in your heart.”

how do you interpret this?

because I read this as teaching us to be especially kid to those who are suffering because they need it the most. Hold back on judging them for what is going on in their life, and support them instead with live and kindness

you have already admitted it’s a difficult and emotional decision for many.. would you not count these people as suffering?

I don’t be particularly take issue with you being against the idea of abortion. It is really sad and I would hate to be in that position where I would have to consider myself. But what I take issue with is the idea you should deny it to people when the alternative option is incredibly cruel for everyone involved (eg. A child that will not survive birth)

and again I think that pushing these beliefs for the sake of God is giving all Christians a bad name when actually many of us try to be kind, understanding and empathetic people

Bible believing Christian’s know how beloved Gods creation is to him. There is absolutely no justification for us taking someone’s life.

the loving thing to do to someone in a burning house isn’t to tell them they’re fine and the house isn’t burning down. It’s to tell them your house is burning down and get them help.

Love isn’t love if you let someone believe in a lie that is catastrophic and wrong. If anything it’s the exact opposite of love. Jesus was incredibly loving - but also incredibly truthful.

yes many Christian’s get a bad name but compromising and not telling people the truth about what the word says is categorically wrong.

Passepartoute · 01/10/2023 21:53

Additionally I’m a person that will fight to the death for children. Because one day we will all have to give an account for everything we’ve done on Earth. I love you enough to speak truth.

So, @Babochan88, take a situation where there are two children whose mother is now pregnant. Circumstances arise where the baby is alive now but is not going to survive birth, and if the mother is made to go through childbirth she will die. Will you fight for that mother's life, and for those two children to keep their mother?

monsteramunch · 01/10/2023 21:54

Bible believing Christian’s know how beloved Gods creation is to him. There is absolutely no justification for us taking someone’s life.

So why are you willing to say that you believe even if a baby will die a painful death during or shortly after birth, the mother should have to carry them to term and give birth, but unwilling to say that you believe that if a pregnancy or childbirth will kill the mother, they should still have to carry to term and give birth?

What is the moral justification from your side of saying in one case you are unwilling to commit to the principle that the pregnancy shouldn't be interferes with?

pointythings · 01/10/2023 21:54

The problem with the Bible is that it is a much translated and redacted book, written by fallible humans for fallible humans in order to control them. You can believe that it is the direct voice of a deity, but you cannot and should never be allowed to force others who do not share that belief to live by its tenets - which, on top of everything else, are subject to very many very different interpretations by various denominations of Christianity.

Unless you believe that we should strive for a single denomination (yours) world where everyone is forced into your version of the faith, you cannot use the Bible to make people do what you want.

monsteramunch · 01/10/2023 21:55

monsteramunch · 01/10/2023 21:54

Bible believing Christian’s know how beloved Gods creation is to him. There is absolutely no justification for us taking someone’s life.

So why are you willing to say that you believe even if a baby will die a painful death during or shortly after birth, the mother should have to carry them to term and give birth, but unwilling to say that you believe that if a pregnancy or childbirth will kill the mother, they should still have to carry to term and give birth?

What is the moral justification from your side of saying in one case you are unwilling to commit to the principle that the pregnancy shouldn't be interferes with?

'interfered with' that was meant to say obviously

GodDammitCecil · 01/10/2023 21:58

@Babochan88 - can you get pregnant?

Babochan88 · 01/10/2023 21:58

MustBeNapTime · 01/10/2023 21:37

@Babochan88
No, that's not an answer to my question you are simply stating circumstances. You said way back up the thread that even if the baby is definitely not going to survive in the world that a baby MUST still be given birth to and not painlessly allowed to sleep with care and dignity. So I ask you again, simply yes or no, could YOU stand there and watch a tiny baby screaming in agony and dying in front of you. Could you stand to hear those screams and watch that baby unable to get breath in their tiny body, twisting in agony and think that's okay? Because that is what you are asking mothers, fathers and medical practitioners to do! And if you say yes, you could, because you don't have the right to take a life in those circumstance then you are beyond words, it is an utterly abhorrent stance and you are definitely not a true Christian, how could you be so cruel? I'm an atheist, but surely Christianity at it's heart is about easing the suffering of others? And if you say no, you couldn't, then can I ask why you expect anyone else to?

Show quote history

My answer pretty much answered it…plus I’ve answered questions like yours many times?

You what a yes or no but abortion is never that simple so the answer you get is all I can honestly give you.

I believe all babies should have the right to be born because who knows the outcome?
If the baby is born and unfortunately dies then yes it’s obviously very sad. I would also ask for pain relief so that the death wasn’t as agonising.

But I wouldn’t block the baby from being born knowing that it could potentially pass…

Babochan88 · 01/10/2023 22:00

GodDammitCecil · 01/10/2023 21:58

@Babochan88 - can you get pregnant?

I understand that you think I’m terrible (I promise you I’m not) but surely you know that you should never ask someone such a question???