This is the Handmaids Tale in real-time

[Crapsummer2023]

If I were living in Texas, I’d start making moves to leave soon.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/28/texas-lawyer-abortion-ban-procedure-patient-information

Speak for yourself.

I don't try to force my moral views on anyone. I vote for political parties that most allign with my values.

Some of your views, and comments here, are frankly disgusting. You have called women murderers. Well i'll turn that around on you: anyone who for any reason (especially religious) who forces a woman to endure a pregnancy that will kill her or result in a baby that dies painfully after the birth needs to take a long hard look at themselves.
And ask yourself (you're Christian) WWJD? Because Jesus was Jewish. And the Jewish religion permits abortion

I'd also add that anyone forcing a woman to go through a pregnancy which would result in her or her baby's, death is also a "murderer" by @Babochan88's logic.

I had a ruptured tubal ectopic pregnancy last year. In fact, I'm only a few weeks away from the anniversary of my loss. My baby was very much loved and wanted.

Last year my life was prioritised at every step of the way, thankfully. I was in emergency surgery within the hour to remove my tube, remove the pregnancy and stop the internal bleeding which would have killed me if not treated. I was 7+4. Women in countries with strict abortion bans - like Malta - have faced delays of days to their ectopic pregnancy treatment whilst an 'ethics panel' considers what treatment can be permitted under the law. Absolutely appalling. An ectopic pregnancy is a medical emergency. It's the leading cause of maternal death in the first trimester.

Pregnancy can be very dangerous. Sometimes pregnancies need to be ended to save the woman's life. Or to preserve her health and wellbeing, whether mental or physical. The mother should always be the priority.

Yeah, ectopics are where the forced birther argument tends to fall down. Unless one is one of those utterly brainless Republicans who think that the embryo can just be transplanted from the Fallopian tube into the uterus. Clueless as well as evil.

Indeed pointythings. One of the first things the lovely EPU doctors told me when they told me my pregnancy was ectopic was that there is absolutely no way the pregnancy can be moved. It was never viable.

That stupid Ohio Bill from 2019 has done a lot of damage the EPU doctors said. They said it's harder to persuade some parents that the pregnancy can't be saved now. There's also worsening rhetoric online about ectopic and that doctors and mothers aren't doing enough to save the pregnancies. I've seen some idiots on FB arguing they knew someone before abortion was legalised who had an ectopic successfully moved.

The Christian view is that nobody has the right to end a life.

but you force the woman to give birth and that kills her. You have ended her life.

As i said: it's too easy for you. You don't have to think, there is no nuance. You just "computer says no" without consideration of circumstances. It is a weak argument.

@Babochan88

The Christian view is that nobody has the right to end a life.

But you are unsure about this if the mother's life is in danger, according to your previous post. So you don't believe this view unconditionally.

You aren't willing to say you believe that a mother should be forced to carry her baby to term and give birth if that pregnancy and birth will kill the mother? It sounds like a grey area for you.

In which case you don't actually believe that 'nobody has the right to end a life'.

We don’t know that as a matter of fact.

Many children born to tough situations go on and thrive in life and many don’t thrive. But you cannot tell the outcome of someone’s life and you don’t have the right to make that judgement.

For the ones that don’t thrive, it’s important to work at all levels and aspects of human life. To provide, help support, guidance, financial help, legislation, accommodation etc. Which is what many pro lifers are doing - employed or volunteering

Why are so many ‘pro life’ evangelicals also pro death penalty then?

@Babochan88

We don’t know that as a matter of fact.

But in the examples where it was a matter of fact that the baby carried to term would die a slow and painful death during or shortly after birth, you still believe that it's morally right for the pregnancy and birth to go ahead.

When there's no chance whatsoever of recovery, wellness, thriving, support etc. When the only possible outcome is a slow and painful death being the entirety of that baby's short life.

You said that when asked very directly.

I can't fathom how you feel that is morally justified.

You have. When you call me names and say that your pro choice stance is correct then you are forcing your moralistic view. And you have every right to do so, as do I.

As Christians we believe that God loves everyone and that taking the life of another is wrong. Jesus (God in the flesh) called taking another’s life wrong.

I can’t answer that as I’m against capital punishment.

@Babochan88

As Christians we believe that God loves everyone and that taking the life of another is wrong. Jesus (God in the flesh) called taking another’s life wrong.

So why are you unable to say that you believe even if a mother will definitely die as a result of pregnancy or birth, she should have to carry to term and give birth?

If you truly believe in that teaching, why is there a grey area for you?

Nope completely misquoting here

Respectfully I can proudly say I am a Christian.

@Babochan88 if you genuinely are a Christian you clearly don't live by Christian principles.

What does the Bible say about forgiveness and Judgement?
Luke 6:37 – “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven.” Matthew 7:1 – “Judge not, that you not be judged.”

You are an unforgiving, judgemental, pro forced birther who thinks that all babies should be born no matter what the cost.

Go away and take your archaic, mysogynistic beliefs elsewhere. You are not welcome here.

I had a friend when my DC were nursery age. She got pregnant with a much wanted second child. There was a history of a genetic condition in the family that meant if they passed it on, their much wanted baby would die within a few hours of birth.

So they had the test and it was positive. There was never any chance that this baby would live or thrive. So my friend had a termination at 26 weeks - NHS delays meant it couldn't be done earlier.

@Babochan88 do you think she should have been forced to carry that baby to term and watch it die when she didn't want to? Do you think she should just have taken that pain?

You don't understand the difference between me saying "pro choice doesn't mean that you have to have an abortion, but the rest of us can choose" and you saying "nope, nobody can have one"

You don't have the right to impose a lack of bodily autonomy on me. I am not doing the same to you.

If God was so lovely and loved everyone she wouldn't let so many people suffer really awful lives.

@Brefugee very well put. It's really very simple.

People who are pro choice do not force anyone to have abortions. We do not force anyone into anything. We do not force our beliefs on people who do not share them.

Forced birthers on the other hand want to force women to have babies. You want everyone to act in accordance with your beliefs.

This is why the forced birth position is also called 'reproductive slavery'.

You have. When you call me names and say that your pro choice stance is correct then you are forcing your moralistic view. And you have every right to do so, as do I.

@Babochan88 Take that back right now. I have read my posts and unlike you i haven't called anyone names (you called people murderers IIRC).

Wanting pro-choice laws isn't moralising or forcing you or your misguided pro-birth friends to do anything. We give you the choice for yourselves.

You on the other hand want to force your theology on us. I don't believe in your god. It is lazy to rely on the teachings of a patriarchial society from 2000 years ago to make your decisions.

I am sure i heard in a podcast - maybe Visible Women about data tracking apps for periods- that in some states you can bring a fine/ civil case against individuals who you prove have had an abortion when illegal. I'll go away and see if I can find out

My views directly oppose those of @Babochan88 , I am pro-choice at any time for any reason.

I do not believe that forced birthers save any lives. They destroy plenty.

and say that your pro choice stance is correct then you are forcing your moralistic view.

How is saying ‘you can choose whether or not you want to have an abortion’ forcing a moralistic view on anyone?

It’s doing the exact opposite.

Can you get pregnant @Babochan88?

Being honest I was wondering this but reluctant to say so due to experiencing infertility myself.

You know the Bible is pro-choice, right? What with being a good Christian and all?

Exodus 21: 22-23

When men are fighting and a pregnant woman is pushed so that her offspring is expelled, but no other damage occurs, whoever is responsible for this should be punished. The judges determine what this woman’s husband may extract from the culprit. But, if other damage occurs, the penalty shall be a life for a life.

If you cause an accidental miscarriage by harming a pregnant women then the penalty is just reparations to her husband, it's not a life for a life because you didn't take a life. The penalty for taking a life was death so the fact that this was not the penalty here shows that the bible recognises a fetus is not a person/a life.

Numbers 5: 11-31 details a test to check if your wife has been unfaithful. The test involves causing an abortion as a pregnancy proves she has been cheating.

In Hosea and Kings, God does a whole lot of punishing people including destroying babies in the womb, ripping open pregnant women and cursing the unborn. In all of major slaughters in the bible where entire towns are destroyed, the unborn are not be spared suggesting that they do not have any right to life or protection. So much for sanctity of life...

In Genesis it is expressly stated that life begins with breath therefore life must begin at birth as that is where breath begins.