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AIBU?

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12
GodDammitCecil · 01/10/2023 22:01

Babochan88 · 01/10/2023 22:00

I understand that you think I’m terrible (I promise you I’m not) but surely you know that you should never ask someone such a question???

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B-b-but - it’s ‘just’ a discussion, dear @Babochan88.

Of course I can ask that question.

I ask it again: can you get pregnant?

monsteramunch · 01/10/2023 22:04

@Babochan88

I believe all babies should have the right to be born because who knows the outcome?

Who knows the outcome? In many circumstances that result in terminations for medical reasons, medical professionals absolutely know what the outcome will be. Which is why they then present the mother with her options so she can make an informed decision about next steps.

There are many, many conditions that mean a baby is unable to survive birth or will die shortly after birth. Conditions that do not have miracle cures, cannot be overcome and are definite.

So you using "because who knows the outcome?" when it comes to your reasoning for your belief that all babies should be born, any logic falls down. There is no "because who knows the outcome?" in many cases. No mystery. No potential for an alternative outcome. Just scientific, heartbreaking facts.

And yet in your ideal world you'd choose to have every woman in that position go through the agony and trauma of carrying a child she 100% knows will die during or shortly after birth, then watching them do so.

How that can be a morally 'good' choice is baffling.

Babochan88 · 01/10/2023 22:08

ghostyslovesheets · 01/10/2023 21:36

I’m simply I’m a person who loves people and wants people to live in freedom love and protection

well that's simply not true because you want to deny women access to safe medical care, autonomy over their bodies and criminalise them when they exercise their rights.

If you really care about children - concentrate on the ones who are here, alive and in need rather then going after their mothers.

I promise you that I’m working very hard to help the ones that are here as are many pro lifers.

maybe freedom means different things for us

Babochan88 · 01/10/2023 22:10

GodDammitCecil · 01/10/2023 22:01

B-b-but - it’s ‘just’ a discussion, dear @Babochan88.

Of course I can ask that question.

I ask it again: can you get pregnant?

Show quote history

Yes, It’s a discussion . I’m personally going to keep this as separate from myself as possible.

pointythings · 01/10/2023 22:10

So are you one of those Christians who believes in miracles to the extent that a baby identified in utero as having anencephaly can miraculously be born with a fully intact brain? Because that is ridiculous. There are many conditions where the outcome for the pregnancy is a certainty - and not a good one either. Your failure to accept that means you are not living in the real world.

monsteramunch · 01/10/2023 22:11

maybe freedom means different things for us

For the vast majority of people I don't think the definition of 'freedom' would include losing their bodily autonomy, so yes what freedom means to you is very different to what it means to a great many other people.

MustBeNapTime · 01/10/2023 22:12

Babochan88 · 01/10/2023 21:58

My answer pretty much answered it…plus I’ve answered questions like yours many times?

You what a yes or no but abortion is never that simple so the answer you get is all I can honestly give you.

I believe all babies should have the right to be born because who knows the outcome?
If the baby is born and unfortunately dies then yes it’s obviously very sad. I would also ask for pain relief so that the death wasn’t as agonising.

But I wouldn’t block the baby from being born knowing that it could potentially pass…

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I'm not talking about varying circumstances that you cannot give an answer to, I'm asking you a very specific question about a very specific situation. But what you are basically inferring is that, yes, you would happily (yes, happily because you would be smug in the godly righteousness of it all) watch a baby screaming in agony and dying a painful death in front of you and watch the absolute desperation and gut-wrenching tragedy in other people's faces than allow a painless, dignified passing of a tiny soul. Because "god" has said that only he has the right to take life.

As I said, I'm an atheist so your god does not have any rights over me and my body and no TRUE Christian that I know of would ever allow such suffering to an innocent. Ending a life can be more compassionate and more in line with religious teachings than saving it at all costs. I think you need to stop interpreting the bible to serve your own personal feelings and agenda.

DirtyDuchess · 01/10/2023 22:23

Having recently seen the Women in the Wall on the Beeb my mind keeps going back to how could those women (the nuns) have been so bloody cruel to other women.....you, Babochan, have answered some of my thoughts! I find you and your views despicable and will fight for women to have choice to the end of my time.

Catsmere · 01/10/2023 22:24

Babochan88 · 01/10/2023 14:24

Respectfully, I purposely ignored your question because I don’t need to disclose my personal life on the internet. my personal circumstances have no baring on this discussion, neither do yours.

This is just a discussion, we don’t need to make things personal.

However I understand it’s brought up many difficult feelings for people which I’m sorry about. The topic of abortion is hard and complicated and challenging and difficult. I do understand that every situation is difficult and needs its own particular wisdom.

It is personal. There are women here who would be imprisoned or dead under the regime you want.

Are you a man? Men are forever talking about women's lives as if we're just theoretical talking points.

GodDammitCecil · 01/10/2023 22:30

Babochan88 · 01/10/2023 22:10

Yes, It’s a discussion . I’m personally going to keep this as separate from myself as possible.

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Yes, I think we all know why.

This is a theoretical discussion for you.

Babochan88 · 01/10/2023 22:33

DrBlackbird · 01/10/2023 21:35

Thank you to all the women articulating their positions and sharing their difficult personal circumstances. In this way, I appreciate that @Babochan88 stayed on the thread if only to read others’ responses.

That includes those who are Christian and expressing support for a woman’s right to choose. When I was active in the Church, one aspect that appalled me was the intolerance and judgemental attitude of many so-called Christians who were highly selective about which preachings of Jesus they followed.

It also amazes me that Christians adhere literally to the writings of men from 2000 years ago when it comes to women’s rights, but very happy to make use of 21st C technologies / medicines when they need it themselves.

If Christians are meant to adhere to the literal texts of the bible, then why don’t they all hate their family? "Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them, He said, 'If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters — yes, even their own life — such a person cannot be my disciple,'" Luke 14:25-26.

It’s all cherry picking.

In any event,@Babochan88 you stated that you were aghast at such a sweeping generalisation. Honestly.

How do you reconcile being aghast at some sweeping generalisations, but perpetuate others (all abortions in the UK ought to be illegal). Honestly? You still persist in adhering to that particular sweeping generalisation in spite of being faced here with lived experience by women, mothers, who would’ve lost their lives or having to choose between losing a viable healthy foetus and terminating one unviable twin?

NB Babochan88 has already implied that s/he is a parent.

The Bible uses literal and figurative language. What Jesus describes here is not putting anything before him. Following and being loyal to him even if everyone including members of your family hate you. being willing to put him before your family. It’s imperative that the context of passages are studied too - Commentaries are great sources.

I can’t speak about each and all lived experience and I don’t want to cause any unnecessary harm. Although I understand my stance has hurt a lot of people - which I do emphasise with.

however I can be definitely sure about this - I always believe abortion in every circumstance is not the right choice. Society may think you have the right to decide who lives or dies but you don’t.

its a shame you’ve had a bad time with the church. Church hurt does happen. But I hope you know Jesus absolutely loves you and wants a continued relationship with you.

CostelloJones · 01/10/2023 22:33

My friends baby had no lungs.

I really believe is no world in which is it kinder to watch them be born and then suffocate to death over the alternatives. It would be cruel, and more distressing for everyone.

there’s a word you could learn from the bible..

Mercy

Totaly · 01/10/2023 22:42

I can’t speak about each and all lived experience and I don’t want to cause any unnecessary harm

But you are. You’re lack of empathy is astounding.

My children lived, I’ve never had an abortion. I still respect any woman’s right to make that decision.

monsteramunch · 01/10/2023 22:42

however I can be definitely sure about this - I always believe abortion in every circumstance is not the right choice.

Even in ectopic pregnancies?

Even in a pregnancy that doctors confirm will result in the death of the mother?

Really?

ghostyslovesheets · 01/10/2023 22:49

Your relationship with God is about you - not other people - God will judge you on your actions and others on theirs - it's not your place to judge or try and be God by preventing peoples choices - God will see you as a curtain twitching human who didn't really help anyone

My mum is a Christian - she is active in her church - she helps families by running after school clubs that feed families, staffing food banks, delivering food parcels and not voting Tory - she supported campaigns against altering the abortion act through the decades because she has been a poverty stricken single parent and knew that that meant women needed options.

I work with exploited children and young people, struggling families, adoption break downs, I see the reality of life for families that are dysfunctional, facing homelessness, struggling with poverty and addition and dealing with domestic abuse - the very last thing women need is you - from your high castle of virtue judging them and making their lives even more difficult

I feel God would feel the same

ThereIbledit · 01/10/2023 22:51

We possess incredible medical knowledge these days. In fact, we possess such incredible amounts of knowledge that didn't exist when the bible was written.

We know, medically, if a pregnancy is developing in such a way that it will kill the mother. We know that with a very high degree of certainty.

so @Babochan88 my question for you is that in some circumstances, it IS a clear choice. Perform an abortion, mother stands a brilliant chance of living. Let the pregnancy continue: both will die. Very high degree of certainty. Would you, in those circumstances, really force both to die through inaction?

Second question: Do you acknowledge that abortions happen, whether they are legal or not? And that women who have illegal abortions are more likely to die?

Totaly · 01/10/2023 22:56

Babochan88 - do you beliefs extend to all operations?

Would you have an operation for hall stones, or except treatment for cancer? Is that not also gods will?

Did morning you get vaccinated?

DrBlackbird · 01/10/2023 23:11

@ThereIbledit you have your answer however I can be definitely sure about this - I always believe abortion in every circumstance is not the right choice. Society may think you have the right to decide who lives or dies but you don’t

Apparently neither society nor an individual woman gets to decide if she lives or dies, only the likes of Babochan88 does. Anyhow, they are your common or garden variety of religion zealot and not particularly worth responding to now.

They’re also jumping to a lot of assumptions. For example, I never had a ‘bad time’ with the church, nor experienced a ‘church hurt’, whatever the hell that is Hmm but I did observe judgemental and sanctimonious people just exactly like some (well, one) on this thread. And I have no need of anyone to tell me about my relationship with God. That is very presumptuous and unwelcome.

RampantIvy · 01/10/2023 23:12

GodDammitCecil · 01/10/2023 22:30

Yes, I think we all know why.

This is a theoretical discussion for you.

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Or maybe they are a man.

GodDammitCecil · 01/10/2023 23:13

RampantIvy · 01/10/2023 23:12

Or maybe they are a man.

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No ‘or’ about it.

monsteramunch · 01/10/2023 23:14

Totaly · 01/10/2023 22:56

Babochan88 - do you beliefs extend to all operations?

Would you have an operation for hall stones, or except treatment for cancer? Is that not also gods will?

Did morning you get vaccinated?

What about plastic surgery @Babochan88?

Or aesthetics? For cosmetic reasons?

GodDammitCecil · 01/10/2023 23:15

GodDammitCecil · 01/10/2023 23:13

No ‘or’ about it.

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It’s literally what I mean by ‘this is a theoretical discussion for you’.

It seeps from every post.

Iwouldlikesomecake · 01/10/2023 23:29

You still haven’t explained why Savita Halappanavar’s life was worth less than the miscarriage that eventually led to her sepsis and death.

You still haven’t explained why it’s preferable for an ectopic pregnancy to kill a woman, than for her to have surgery to remove the pregnancy and she may go on to have more children which she definitely wouldn’t have had if she was, you know, dead

You don’t need expert legal or medical knowledge to explain these things. They are quite straightforward.

Insisting that ‘sperm meets egg means nothing can ever interfere with this’ is medieval. What about molar or partial molar pregnancies, ex-utero pregnancies or those that have embedded themselves into scar tissue that will never result in a baby? You can’t say in that instance that it’s ‘killing babies’ because there’s never going to be a baby from an ectopic or molar pregnancy?

Insommmmnia · 01/10/2023 23:33

the loving thing to do to someone in a burning house isn’t to tell them they’re fine and the house isn’t burning down. It’s to tell them your house is burning down and get them help.

The loving thing to do when someone is pregnant with a baby that will definitely die once born is not to tell them that they are fine and we don't know what will happen. It's to tell them sadly their baby will die and get them the help they need if they decide they would prefer to terminate are the pregnancy earlier.

Dontcallmescarface · 01/10/2023 23:46

I believe all babies should have the right to be born because who knows the outcome?

What do you suppose the outcome for my son would been? He had no lungs ffs there was only ever going to be 1 outcome....death by suffocation.