To intensely dislike Keir Starmer

[LemonyTicket]

I can't stand Tories.
The current Tories are the worst

But I still intensely dislike Keir Starmer and will probably vote Green.

I find him phony, with no vision, like a terrible 6th form prefect. And to be honest his whole front bench are dreadful. Wes Streeting nauseates me.

Is it just me?

It looks like the biggest change will be some private school dc having to leave their schools, or small preps closing. Which some will be and already are delighted about. That might keep the good feelings for a while.

Although I wonder about those who’ve said they use private and are pro Labour. Wouldn’t you choose state for dc to match your beliefs?

Other than that not much extra funding in it. They won’t be able to pay for stuff either.

@Teateaandmoretea But you don't criticise aspects of Labour, you "appear" to want to take them down line by line?

I really don't see how anyone could describe the present Tory Govt as Left of Centre, what they ve done is had to fire fight the results of their terrible policies on health education etc by throwing money at problems, rather than having any sort of longer term plan.

I ve rarely seen a MN poster advocating Socialism, certainly none on this thread.

So, wanting a better NHS (and other public services) more spending per pupil on education, a more integrated transport system and better road mtce doesn't make someone a socialist.

I really don't see how anyone could describe the present Tory Govt as Left of Centre

Its pretty simple:

1. The policies during Covid were left wing
2. The current tax burden as reported today is set to hit 37% of national income by the time the election comes round. It has not been higher than that since 1948 (just read an article in the BBC that helpfully provides this).

So, wanting a better NHS (and other public services) more spending per pupil on education, a more integrated transport system and better road mtce doesn't make someone a socialist.

No, but expecting the government to look after everyone does. And that is quite normal mantra. I think if you can’t see socialism on mumsnet you need to think harder.

I would also like all the things above, Labour need to explain exactly how they will deliver this and I’ll be on board. But with all of the tax rises under the last Tory government this is a very big challenge.

I think you need to have a think about what socialism actually is and then compare to the UKs Govt and opposition parties.

Covid support measures were used by Govts around the world, whether right or left of centre, they were not Left Wing policies.

Perhaps you'd like to suggest what a "right wing" govt should have done instead?

Public services could work a lot better with long term planning, not necessarily more money, badly spent, which is what we see under the Tories.

Look at what the NHS spends on re admissions, more complex operations and staff turn over because of poor decision making & not treating people in a timely manner.

UK Govts have never looked after everyone & i don't think Labour plan on introducing this, have you any idea how low out of work benefits actually are?

Labour would be idiotic if they set out detailed plans on how they would change public services etc this far out from a GE.

I know what socialism is thank you, I have a degree that is partly politics. It is as I described in my previous post. A more right wing approach to Covid would have not chucked huge amounts of furlough, eat out to help out etc etc. It would not have included lockdowns but people would have been expected to take responsibility for themselves.

I agree with you that U.K. governments have never looked after everyone, and have never been socialist. Many mumsnetters don’t seem to realise this though and think it will be more different under Labour than it is. Yes there are a lot of people in poverty, but this isn’t going to significantly change. One of the big unsolvable problems here is housing costs and the associated benefits.

And I also agree that it’s too early for Labour to give the clear plan. I just can’t see where they will find money from to sort out the problems.

I agree in the NHS there is a lot of mismanagement and if this is solved it would help without spending more. But they will need money to sort out the crumbling RAAC buildings everywhere and ensure the education system gives the skills needed. Education is badly badly underfunded. This is precisely why I voted Labour at the last election FWIW.

Ultimately without the infrastructure to succeed the country fails. Austerity has crumbled the infrastructure and we spent all the money on covid.

When Rory Stewart declared himself in the Conservative leadership race-I actually thought that I could vote for him. He seems genuinely interested in improving the country and helping people. He has an inner quality of some integrity and wanting to personally grow and learn.

I was gutted that he withdrew. I've never voted Tory.

You see helford has made a serious response.

Brexit and the way we discuss politics has done the UK a lot of damage. It is now very cheap. And it's childish.

Britain has problems, structural ones. As usual, our politicians externalise that. The narrative is that it is the EU. Asylum seekers. International conventions that guarantee human rights. Anything, absolutely anything except looking at our domestic culture.

That domestic culture, the way we deal with each other, how we plan public services, what we spend and for who is nowhere. It's what we are missing. We don't invest in ourselves or the future. We pay more out in benefits including pensions than education.

I will vote for a party that acknowledges that. We need to rebuild domestically and for the long term. Because all this cheap, shitty externalising by politicians to avoid responsibility has to stop post Brexit.

If the decision meant anything it meant we were now responsible. And we had better grip this freedom we apparently gave ourselves and look at our domestic policy.

Oh dear. OPs description is perfect.

I am furious about the state of politics in this country. I am a natural Labour person - I was even a member and activist for them in my younger years. Their sheer incompetence and the true shit show that was Corbyn and Momentum meant I voted for another party for the first time ever last time. I had hopes for KS. I hoped he would bring gravitas and coherence to the party. Every strong democracy needs sober and strong opposition parties. Yet I can't return to Labour any time soon. I think Kier is weak. I intensely dislike Raynor.... the fact she thinks it is appropriate to speak with such viciousness and venom about Tories disgusts me. It shows she has no depth, no sense of nuance and no respect for the democratic principles that sometimes people will disagree with you. I think it will take years for Labour to rebuild and I do not think they are fit for government.

But the government is also a shit show. I have respect for Rishi and think that it is possible that they can rebuild the country. Covid was a fucking economic disaster- but what could they do? Okay they spaffed money up the wall on dodgy this and that but I do think mostly they tried their best. For people. No-one kn ew what the fuck was going to happen or for how long. We were all blindly groping in the dark- the Government was too. The furlough scheme keeping food on peoples tables. The work around preventing people being evicted for rent arrears - mortgage holidays. This was designed to help keep people afloat and it cost a fucking bomb. We KNEW that it would all come home to roost at some point- it is inevitable. But I think they actually did try. Boris was and is a disgusting morality-free embarrassment, the Conservatives can't justify that at all IMO.

I have no fucking idea who I will vote for. At the end of the day probably the party I think will do the least harm to my family. Personal politics. Never voted like that before... I was always a bigger picture person. There is a very good chance I will spoil my ballot. This staggers me that I will even contemplate it.

You see this is all about politics as personality. I do understand that to a degree but also, it's a problem. We have got used to that as a way probably of avoiding the tough stuff about money, where to spend it.

Many people here will have responsible jobs where they professionally put feelings aside. We do need to start doing that again a bit more. Otherwise yes we are in the world of "you resemble a flight attendant and so I will not think about what you said".

How do you square your politics with choosing to use private schools

Wouldn’t state be a better fit?

@EasternStandard - now you tell me why I cannot do both and then I will answer your question.

I really agree with you @DawnInAutumn I have grave worries about the Labour shadow front bench (and that the government is a shit show!).

A more right wing approach to Covid would have not chucked huge amounts of furlough, eat out to help out etc etc. It would not have included lockdowns but people would have been expected to take responsibility for themselves

Even Trump had Furlough, and many states had LD, by your measure, there are few right wing Govts in the world.

Sweden tried a more relaxed approach to LD and ended up with far higher deaths than their nearest countries, Brazil had none and the death toll was awful, if people in this country had carried on going to work, we'd have had huge infection rates and an NHS that would have imploded more than it has already, the toll on the staff has been beyond belief and is all been taken for granted.

Your last post however, makes me realise we aren't too far apart, infrastructure austerity, mismanagement etc etc are all things we would agree on.

On funding, Labour are going to have to introduce taxes on wealth and tax unearned income similar to earned income... as other countries do btw, which negates the "rich will move argument"

I intensely dislike Raynor[sic].. and like most people expressing such a view, you can't even get her name right.

You obviously are doing both. I’m intrigued by pro Labour posters, some prolifically so who do not see equality as starting with the services they use

Why wouldn’t you?

I'm somewhat puzzled by someone defining Starmer as weak but having respect for Sunak. Sunak seems weak to me. Javid declined to sack his advisers and appoint ones dictated by Cummings, so resigned as Chancellor. Sunak was fully prepared to go along with that condition to take the job. When Javid subsequently resigned from Johnson's government, precipitating Johnson's downfall he had the decency to inform number 10 before the media made it public. Sunak didn't. Sunak became Conservative leader and PM needing endorsement from the ERG. The price for that seems to have been to have Braverman in a prominent role and we can see what she's been allowed to get away with.

How anyone can't see that Sunak is incredibly weak and self serving is beyond me.

@EasternStandard - no, you did not answer my question.
That is of course returning your latent point, unspoken, that you may inquire into my thinking but I may not ask the wider premise of your own.

Of course, it is up to me where I spend my money. But I also accept that public services need money. These two things are not incompatible are they?

People of either political leaning can and do use private education, i know Tory voters who use state but could afford private and labour voters who use private, people do whats best for their circumstances and aims.

Paying VAT for what is basically a luxury seems fair and reasonable, esp if the billion or so raised goes to providing more school meals for the less well off.

Its not a dividing line & in any case, the argument over VAT on school fees is an irrelevance, this country, after 13 years of the Tories is trillions in debt, with crumbling public services, we can't even afford a proper defence of the country now (according to senior NATO generals)

I have noticed that too. Very curious.

It’s the same with xenophobes, they always write “boarders” instead of “borders”, I have absolutely NO IDEA why.

I have said why. It feels incongruous

You care about equality, when posting, but it stops short of services used personally.

I don’t begrudge either system. We’ve been very fortunate, but I’ve seen a couple of posters post a lot about inequity and I wonder how they square the two

Maybe they are all working from the same typo-ridden script?

Also people who insist they aren't rascist.......

In addition looking at various posts over last day or so where posters have talked about having principles, I wonder why those do not hold if felt strongly

You ll have to explain why sending your kids to a private school is unprincipled?

Should Labour voters also only travel standard class, never have a holiday and live in a small house because so many others can't afford these.

Yours is a silly argument and one you never hold yourself or Tory voters to.