To have lost it at DS aged 11

[FluthyFeaffers]

I have yelled at him this evening.
He is 11, soon to be 12.
Started Yr 7 in secondary school 3 weeks ago.
He is struggling so much with his (lack of) organisation in the mornings before school, I am at my wits end.
I spent the whole of year 5 and 6 battling, absolutely battling with him to get ready for school, but never succeeded. We were late every single day for 2 years.
"Eat your breakfast" gets distracted eating breakfast.
"Clean your teeth" goes upstairs to clean teeth but wanders around doing something else.
"Get dressed" goes in to bedroom to get dressed but ends up doing something else.
Etc. Etc. All through year 5 & 6.
It made us late because whilst this was going on I'm racing around trying to get myself ready for work and trying to get my other younger DC ready. Then I'd go and check on DS and he'd never ever have done what I'd sent him to do.
Nothing worked to motivate him. No reward system, no sticker chart, no amount of explaining about the repercussions of not doing as asked, no amount of explaining about the knock on effect of being late for school. I tried it all for 2 years. Nothing worked.
But because it was primary school, all that happened to him was we missed the school gate and had to go roundcto the front reception to be let in. He got a warm friendly greeting from teachers and I got a look of "Why can't you get your poor child in to school on time" and then I'd arrive late for work and get reprimanded for it.
So I spent the whole summer drilling it in to him that in Yr 7 he must must must get to school on time, because in secondary school if you're late you get a detention, because you're causing your sibling masses of stress by making them late for school every time you're late for school, because I am getting in to serious trouble at work because of arriving late every day because I drop you in late because you're not ready to leave on time, because it creates SO MUCH STRESS when you won't get ready in time to leave on time for school.
Yes yes yes yes yes mum, he said every time I brought it up over summer.
I promise, promise, promise I will change, he said.
4 weeks in to secondary school, and it is a nightmare every single morning.
He cannot, cannot get himself ready for school in time to leave.
I spell out for him every single morning what he needs to do. It's soooooo eeeeeasy. It's the same god damn things every single day! Nothing changes! Do x, y, z.
"Yes mum" wanders around.
"Have you done x, y and z?"
"No, sorry, I forgot. I'll do it now"
Wanders off.
"Why haven't you done x? Ive asked you twice now"
"Sorry"
"Do it now"
"Why haven't you done y? I've asked you 3 times"
"I'm sorry. I'll do it. I'm trying my best"
Last week he needed to take his PE bag on 1 of the says.
"Remember to take your PE bag today, it's hanging in the cupboard " I said.
"Oh yeah!!!!! PE!!!!! I forgot!!!!!! Thanks for reminding me!!!!!"
20 mins later:
"Have you got your PE bag?"
"Oh No! I forgot! I'll get it now...."
15 mins later, after non stop constant continuous marshalling to get ready, do this, do that, do this, do that:
"Right, come on, we're late again, pick up your rucksack and your PE bag we need to leave NOW"
DS hovers around putting on tie and blazer which I'd asked him to do the the past hour sling with all his other things he needs to do.
"NOW" I raise my voice, as he's making my other child late for school and me late for work.
He runs out the door, jumps in the car.
We get to school.
He turns pale and says "I've forgotten my PE bag"
"Tough" I say. " I have told you 3 times this morning to take your PE bag. I reminded you for the 3rd time right before we left home."
DS starts crying
"I will get a detention!!!!!!!!!"
His worst, absolute worst fear, is getting a detention. He's never had one, and is terrified of getting one.
"Maybe you'll learn if you get a detention " I say.
Then he starts begging and pleading with me to take him home to get his PE bag. He's crying sorry over and over again. He looks physically ill, sweating, clammy, pale.
So I drive him home to get PE bag.
My other child starts crying because now she is horribly late for school (different school) and is too young to go in by herself plus she has SEN and isn't mature enough to cope with going in by herself.
I drop him back to school. He's late. I drop DD toschool. She's late. I get 'the look' from her teachers. I drive to work. I'm late. I get disciplined by my boss.
That evening, I talk to DS for a very, very long time about the impact of his disorganisation in the mornings.
We work out that it would help him if I wrote down for him everything he needs to do in the mornings.
So I write it all out in very clear, bullet point steps. I show it to him, he thinks it's really helpful.
Great, I think.
Why didnt I think of this before.
1 week on, it's of no help at all.
This morning, he's wandering around telling me he's ready whilst simultaneously having forgotten 7 instructions in his morning list. I pointed each of the 7 things on the list out to him, staring each thing that was on the list that he hadn't done.
I told him to do them.
Went off to get other child ready to leave, I'm ready to leave, DS still not ready to leave. We were all late again.
Yesterday, he had something really important to take to school. His timetable. I askedchim SIX TIMES to put his timetable in to his rucksack (he'd got it out at home and I'd seen it in theclounge). I told him the night before, and again in the morning, 6 separate times in total "Put your timetable in to your rucksack now, otherwise you will forget" . 6 times. The 6th time was just before we left. I mean, I was getting more and more stern each time. "Put. Your. Timetable. In. To. Your. Rucksack. NOW. NOW!" We got to school. He turned pale. Panicked. "Mum I've forgotten my timetable!!!!!!!".
I point blank refused to go back and sent him in to school without it. He was really upset. Told me after school today that he'd gone to the wrong classroom at one point in the day as couldn't remember without his timetable. So I said "Go and put it in your rucksack now then, do it now".
"Ok" he says.
Dinnertime:
"Did you put your timetable in your rucksack?"
"Oh No! I got distracted! I'll do it now!"
Evening time
"Is your timetable in your rucksack?"
"No.......I forgot......."
"Go and do it immediately "
"OK...."
Bedtime, he's in bed, reading:
"Darling, is your timetable in your rucksack, did you do it?"
"No, sorry, I'm sorry mum, I forgot"
And that was that.
I lost it.
Yelled at him. For ages.
I have NEVER yelled at him before. Never.
He was devastated. So remorseful. Said sorry over and over again.
And finally, he broke my heart by sadly and quietly saying "I'm so sorry for being me. I really struggle with my short term memory mummy. I know it causes problems butvi cant help it".
He's soon to be 12.
He has not got SEN.
He's bright.
He's average at school except for maths where he's below average.
He's amazing in every other way.
He's such a good boy.
He tries so hard all of the time to do his best.
He's a clever boy.
He's a wonderful personality.
Fantastic sense of humour.
Loving.
Kind.
Affectionate.
Funny.
Friends love him.
Teachers complimentary about him.
What the hell is wrong with him in tbe mornings?????????
Am I being too hard?
Am I expecting too much????

”get dressed” to someone with adhd isn’t just one task. Every item of clothing is another step. My son has a shower every morning(he sweats a lot during the night) and this isn’t one step either, its wash hair, wash body, wash face, get out and dry, put deodorant on, brush hair, brush teeth. Then he has to get dressed, put his glasses on, pick up his mobile phone, pick his bag up and pe kit, coat if it’s raining, his lunch/thermos. Plus either making breakfast and eating it or just grabbing something to go. It’s a lot of steps to someone with adhd and lots of opportunity to forget something or get distracted and none of that can be done the night before.

Has he been assessed for adhd? I'm wondering if you say he's not SEN because he's academically able. It's a common mistake. We just had nhs adhd diagnosis and your situation is literally identical to ours. I regret not getting it sorted sooner. They are easier to micromanage when very young and you clean their teeth etc. It becomes harder and harder to manage as they need more independence. I say NHS as I'm aware there's a few articles doing the rounds atm regarding private clinics that take your money and give the diagnosis but are viewed with suspicion by schools etc. Sounds like you need diagnosis and dla. There is an obligation for reasonable adjustments when a recognised disability causes impairment. I hope you find a way through this, it isn't going to improve by itself. We now have meds, some parents will not want that but it has been very beneficial in our case.

This sounds EXACTLY like my 10 year old daughter, who is diagnosed as Autistic. She is academically very clever, can remember tiny details from years ago, can focus on things that are her special interests and know every little thing about them. But she forgets what to do when getting ready in a morning, despite having the same routine for years on end. She’s easily distracted when she should be brushing her teeth, or getting dressed/undressed. Mornings and bedtimes take FOREVER and with a LOT of verbal reminders from us that she needs to do the next thing in the getting ready process.

I was already thinking it sounds like he is neurodivergent, and then you mentioned his sister is already diagnosed, which means there’s a higher chance that he is too.

Honestly, look into both Autism and ADHD, it could be one of them, or even both x

I'm an educational psychologist. It sounds as if a) people reading this can see short term / working memory problems are a possibility here b) your son himself can. It sounds v frustrating for you and him and it sounds like a significant issue. Assuming he isnt groggy with tiredness in the morning: It sounds like it'd be wise to try to get him assessed for a) short term memory (verbal and visual) b) working memory (verbal and visual) c) aural listening comprehension. If he struggled significantly with either of a) or b) it would be likely to impact mental maths as well as long-writing skill, and he'd probably be the kind of kid who looked around at others in class to remember what the next step of the process was. So you could try asking him how on earth he manages at school to complete sequences of instructions if he finds it tricky at home; some kids develop quite canny strategies to help themselves. It is possible to have good long term memory and hyperfocusing skill for some tasks but poor short term verbal memory. If it isn't a short term and working memory issue then distractibility/ inattention could explain it. Short term memory and working memory issues don't necessarily mean a child has dyslexia or ADHD but there are sometimes overlaps with those conditions. It doesn't sound too much like a motivation issue because he sounds to be trying hard/wanting to do it. In the meantime you could teach him subvocal rehearsal (whispering the job he has to do under his breath til he's done it, or continuously whispering the two next steps he needs to complete) and you could make him a visual tick list that he carries around with him in the morning or that is stapled around his wrist like a bracelet so he can tick it off (rip off before school obvs) Timers can also help focus the mind of some kids but partner with him to trial that because for other kids it really stresses them. If school don't see a problem at all then they are less likely to want to get the assessment themselves. To check if staff notice a problem you could ask school to do a round robin to teachers or ask for a 5 minute call with the senco. Agree with others that the whole family will have less stress if you do the get stuff for school routine the night before.

Why are you leaving washing uniforms till the night before though? Wouldn't it be easier to just wash once a week and then it's just that clean clothes need laying out? Also ironing?? I never iron any school uniform, I just hang out as soon as can when washing machine finishes. Cleaning shoes too.. Surely that is a once a week thing?

Really night before prep should just be putting out clean clothes, putting PE kit in bags and making lunches to go in fridge etc.

This sounds very much like Inattentive ADHD - I think it would be in everyone’s interests to push to get him tested. If he does get an ADHD diagnosis then he can get the help he needs and all your lives will be a whole lot less stressful.
https://www.webmd.com/add-adhd/childhood-adhd/adhd-inattentive-type

As a SENCO, this screams ADHD to me. Not saying he has it. But do talk to your SENCO.

@vickylou78

Cleaning shoes too.. Surely that is a once a week thing?

Really night before prep should just be putting out clean clothes, putting PE kit in bags and making lunches to go in fridge etc.

We have three sets of school uniforms but my ADHD child often leaves jumpers at school. Uniform is almost always covered in gravy or tomato sauce by the end of school.

Shoes are filthy, often wet, after being used to play football in after forgetting football boots.

Children who immediately look crumpled due to being all over the place need to look tidy and cared for for at least the first half-hour of the day. Hence the ironing and polishing.

It would be good to have more sets of everything, but funds and storage are limited.

Lunches made the night before are 'too crispy' or 'too soggy' and trigger disgust.

I could go on!

Neurodivergent children genuinely generate more work, and often have neurodivergent parents who are shattered by the end of the day after the stress of holding it all together at work.

On the bright side, we are excellent coders and experts in lots of things, so earn a reasonable living. We are mostly happy, if chaotic.

Sorry I've just RTFT.

You're a great mum. The support you are giving him is superb.

Ah yes can see what you are saying with the shoes.. I'd probably invest in one more set of clothes to save washing mid week. But think you are stuck with the rest in the mornings then! The life, school and work juggle is hard! Much respect to you!

I have read only your original post

It sounds like my son who has dyspraxia

He is also autistic, but it is dyspraxia that makes us working memory supper and he is so slow to pick up on routines

We repeat things endlessly at the same time in the same way to make them second nature to him

In the evening, we put out all his clothes and pack his bag

In the morning, he goes to the bathroom washed and teeth brushed

Then he goes to his room to get dressed

Then downstairs for breakfast

He doesn't come downstairs, unless he's washed and dressed

Even if breakfast is a struggle, he could have something to eat on the way to school

They washed and dressed,is before everything

It took us a long time to get the routine, and we do not change it

I am just getting diagnosed with ADHD, your son sounds just like me. I went to my GP and they have a contract with Psychiatry UK. The can also pay to see them privately if you can afford it, or ADHD360 who I have heard really good things about. Read Dirty Laundry to get a better insight to how an ADHD brain processes things. It's basically that his brain doesn't have a filter so gets overwhelmed, and also it follows anything that gives a dopamine hit and you can learn to work with that. Also as well as making some things in life harder, it will also make him really good at other things eg thinking outside the box, pulling things together last minute, thinking in a systems way etc. And the more he is supported to be himself (which is not necessarily fitting his ADHD square peg into the neurotypical round hole), the less stressed he will be and the more he will flourish. E.g. today in a really long training session I let myself fidget towards the end otherwise I would have started interrupting loads, then took a good walk at lunch time to get rid of pent up energy, and didn't stay for the pub after as it would be too much sensory and social stimulation after a long day). (Although I am likely inattentive ADHD, I am now noticing more physical fidgeting etc, especially if I let myself do it as an outlet for my mental hyperactivity.) . Try also Pomodoro timer technique for when he needs to do focussed school work, possible using an actual physical timer if he needs something tangible, noise cancelling headphones/white noise eg Lifeat online site.

I will just add I am 45 and have survived and been relatively happy this long, with a professional job, although I am late a lot, have a very messy house etc, need a cleaner to help me keep on top of it etc. But it has been stressful, and I think when I get more reasonable adjustments, insight, techniques, possibly medication, I think my stress levels will be lower and my functioning will be even better 🙂

Ah no @vickylou78 I was going on!

I've been feeling inspired by the organised responders and just done some hanging up from the tumble dryer - which I'd never do 😂

I feel for the OP though - there isn't really a solution which is anything other than her putting a lot of work in, and.... well, it must be so so hard when there's another, younger child with SEN, and you were hoping the older one would stop needing quite so much personal care.

Sorry, going to report with quote...

No, he has ADHD likely, so he doesn't need to be punished so he will 'buck his ideas up', that won't help at all, it will just stress him out and stress makes things worse. His brain processes things differently, so these things are much much harder for him. And to then punish him, will not improve things, just lead to lower and lower self esteem. Or if he does manage to improve a bit because of the fear of punishment, it will take him tremendous effort to do so, and he will become overwhelmed and burnt out. What he needs is reasonable adjustments for his condition, techniques that work for the way his brain works and possibly medication. When people say to me (who has ADHD) 'but being on time is easy, you just do x,y,z, if you cared you would be on time etc', it is like running up and downstairs in front of someone with no legs and saying 'look, look, it's easy, I can't understand why you can't do it, if you wanted to you could'!

'When people say to me (who has ADHD) 'but being on time is easy, you just do x,y,z, if you cared you would be on time etc', it is like running up and downstairs in front of someone with no legs and saying 'look, look, it's easy, I can't understand why you can't do it, if you wanted to you could'!'

@Imagnu1234 -can you please explain to me, how you can't do it, because my dd is similar to this, and I just can't empathise. I don't get it. I want to understand it.

So, for me (super ridiculously organised to the point of obsession) if I need to be somewhere at 8.30 and it takes 30 mins to walk, I set off at 8. If it takes me two minutes to get my coat and shoes on, I'd start doing that at 7.58. And so on.

Yet, my dd who can't seem to do it at all, would still be in pjs at 8. If I ask her to set an alarm to start getting dressed, she'd ignore it. Why? I just don't get it. (And I want to)

So, for your legs example, in my brain, they actually can't. But you actually can get somewhere on time. Can't you? With alarms and strategies etc?

I promise you lm not being goady!

It is hard not to yell on occasion in such situations where you don't feel listened to, whatever the cause, and as its not like you're always doing it, and you apologised after, I wouldn't be too hard on yourself.

But it really sounds like your son is a lovely boy trying hard and isn't just doing this purposefully with any sort of intent....it sounds like he is frustrated with it himself.

It sounds very much like it could be ADHD (my daughter is very similar with the getting distracted and forgetfulness, and is currently awaiting an assessment)

BUT, it could also be that there is so much pressure in the mornings he is becoming very anxious and his brain is flooded, and he is experiencing overwhelm which is impacting his ability to think straight.

I really think you need to be talking to your boss, or changing jobs, as their attitude sounds very harsh and I think understandably this is making you stressed, frustrated and pressured, which you are probably unintentionally passing on to your son.

Please go easy on him, I really do think he is trying his best and he sounds very anxious and like he is starting to feel bad about himself, which can be a slippery slope with too much criticism.

@arethereanyleftatall I just wrote you a massively long reply and then lost it as my phone battery died!! I didn't notice the low battery notifications, as I was so focussed on my reply to you. Lol, given the subject matter.

I would say read Dirty Laundry, by a woman with ADHD and her spouse.

And you could also simulate having ADHD perhaps by turning all the TVs and radios in the house, on to different stations, getting your family to talk at you simultaneously, move all your belongings, mess with all the clocks, give you a questionnaire on all possible options before any simple task, but also put you in a soundproof box with no clocks any time you get interested in something.

I will try and do a longer response, but on the list I did for myself of things I must do tonight, a really long reply on Mumsnet, twice, was not one of them!!!

😂😂😂 thank you @Imagnu1234
I think the huge effort coupled with not achieving what you intended with your response sums up your point perfectly.

And - I will read get that book, and try to read it with all the noise you detailed. Thank you

@arethereanyleftatall It's an interesting one - I've learned a lot from the baffled replies here.

Could you think of something you would like to be able to do, but somehow cannot do - like train for a marathon, or lose three stones, or learn Mandarin? 'But all you need to do is focus'.

I can sometimes work intensively for several hours on a tricky piece of coding. I guess the equivalent might be to ask why others can't code for several hours straight.

As for time blindness - I would know I had to leave at 8, but I would start doing something that takes 5 minutes at 7.45 (like doing some minimal tidying up, to make sure the house doesn't smell of sour milk and onion for the evening).

Then resurface at 8.15 thinking it could only be 7.55, because I had only been doing a chore for a few minutes.

Love that analogy @potterycorner
I get that. Like I can't understand poetry - I can read a 'difficult' poem over and over and over again but none of the words would go in my head. That's my block. So, I guess she's heard '8am' but it has immediately vacated her brain to be replaced by something else.

And one more question please @potterycorner -so, in your example, what would happen if it got to 7.45 and you just sat quietly with your hands in your lap, already ready, with an alarm set for 8? Would you be able to leave at 8?

@arethereanyleftatall

And one more question please @potterycorner -so, in your example, what would happen if it got to 7.45 and you just sat quietly with your hands in your lap, already ready, with an alarm set for 8? Would you be able to leave at 8?

Goodness - the idea of that is causing anxiety! I would instinctively feel ill-at-ease and that I were wasting the 15 minutes. I would need something to do. If there were nothing, I would go into a major daydream and resurface at 8.15.

So, the safest thing would be to leave a bit early - so that at least I was being active, which is distracting from the anxiety.

At which I often lose focus and get lost by going the wrong way on Google Maps; or stop to buy a takeaway coffee and spill it over my shirt; or somehow generate trouble - because I'm looking for something to keep busy with. For example, I might decide to ring someone to do a walk-and-talk, then feel the need to stop to deal with A Situation following the phone call, rather than carrying on with my journey.

I'm now fairly reliable with mornings, but it's by dint of not having any spare moments at all - for example, making sure I get up at a very specific time and leave at a very specific time, leaving myself no time to get sucked into helping with the kids or bits of tidying up.

Just to add, being like this is disabling and deeply stressful, and puts a lot of stress onto family and colleagues too.

To me, it looks like the OP may also be neurodivergent (the long, colourful, detailed original post suggested so). If so, one strategy might be a diagnosis to get some protection at work, and also claim Access to Work, for some additional resources or support - in addition to any separate support that might be available for the children.