To wish I’d had my kids the other way round

[Boyfirstthengirl]

I feel bad saying this but I am from a family where I’m the youngest and a girl/woman (obviously …) and I have an older brother. We get on well enough now and I do have nice memories of us together as kids, it isn’t all bad. But he was always so rough when we were young, would beat me up, call me names and so on.

To be honest I don’t think my parents dealt with it particularly well as they’d get angry with us both although to be fair to them I probably instigated some of it but my memory is selective!

Anyway, I have a boy who is 3 in January. I also have a baby daughter who is 3 months and history looks set to repeat itself … he hasn’t taken to her at all and tries to hurt her a lot. I am very worried about having horrible family dynamics. I want to manage this as best I can but struggling with DS - I can’t seem to get through to him, I know he’s jealous but I can’t think what else I can do.

I know I’ll get slated for this but everyone I know whose eldest child is a girl is excited and happy about the baby. I feel like she’s in a really vulnerable position growing up and I have to protect her but that’s also going to alienate my son

We’ve got a bigger age gap, my DS was 4 when we had DD and he adores his little sister. Even 2 years later he runs to find her most morning when he wakes up.

Yes he can been a tad rough when playing with her sometimes but I think that’s all siblings. I’m older than my brother and we were the same.

At the moment they have a lovely dynamic, I worry as they get older though as the age gap is bigger.

I think you need to give your son more time, mine was 3 and a half when he found out he was having a sister and has always been able to help out a bit (if he wanted to) which I think has helped so your son may respond better when they are able to play together.

Try and find time for just you and him if you can as babies are demanding and 2 years olds are hard work too (DD is 2 at the moment)

If DS is three is he in any childcare?
I have a 7 month old and 3 year old. Baby was born 3 days after 3 year olds birthday.
Since pretty much day 1 she’s continued to go to nursery. She’s now in a school nursery 9-3. This gives me loads of time to lavish cuddles and attention on the baby, take her to baby groups etc. I think if anything I over compensated as I made DD1 self soothe and DD2 gets snuggled to sleep.
Feeding time was always the worst as you could guarantee that’s when the eldest would want me and cry that I was ignoring her. Be kind to yourself, stick the TV or tablet on, have something for them to do that you can do while feeding.
But yes essentially I thought the DD1 would have to get use to DD2 getting most the attention. Not what’s happened. DD2 put in bouncer or chair and watched me and DD2 play, or roles on the floor etc. DD1 still gets the lions share of attention when she’s here. It has worked though. Baby loves watching her sister play and is actually more of a pain when eldest is at nursery. Eldest will now engage with youngest, sing to her when she cries etc. Eldest has also got use to the fact that I’m less available when feeding so doesn’t moan as much.
Be careful about pushing DS away and walking off. You could make his dislike for her grow.

Its nothing to do with sex/ages of children/your parenting, its just siblings, full stop. The dynamics change over the years but they are stuck with each other their whole lives, pretty much every minute of every day when they’re your kids’ ages, so they will get fed up of each other and argue and sometimes fight. Its just life and happens in all families unless there is an only child!!

Oh btw we aren’t soft. DD1 got sent to her room the other day for snatching a toy off DD2 until she agreed to apologise.
A tip I really liked is tell the baby off too, so eldest doesn’t always think it’s them. Example ‘Now baby, you don’t pull ‘siblings’ hair, that’s not kind’.
Also works it making it look like sometimes they are being put first. So obviously sometimes it’s
‘I can’t play now, I’m feeding baby’
but also…
’Baby I’m going to put you down now as I’m going to (play with sibling, get them dressed, make their lunch etc)’
But physically say it so it’s not just eldest who feels like the have to wait

My 4 year old literally didn’t look at his baby bro for the first year, shouted a lot about not liking him. Definitely pushed him.

something clicked when DS2 turned about 18 month. They love each other so hard (apart from at least 2 x day when one or the other is a preschooler / toddler)

on the advice of plenty of people smarter than me, we really leaned in to the ‘no-pressure, you don’t have to look after him - but you do have to share space because we’re family’ thing. I found the more pressure I put on him to love his brother the more he resisted.

sending all the grit and good luck.

My sister and I used to physically fight and really hurt one another. All our young lives. My poor mother 🤦🏻‍♀️ . We really did not like one another. (We adore each other now).

Siblings have fought since the beginning of time. I don’t think the sex matters. Sibling rivalry is a thing, male / female, female / female, male / male.

(One of the many reasons I’m one and done 🏃🏽‍♀️ 🏃🏽‍♀️ 🏃🏽‍♀️)

Haven’t rtft but I really wouldn’t think like this OP. I have a younger brother who I hated when he was born, begged my mum to send him back, we used to kill each other when he got to be about 5 onwards. He was so violent with me but mum used to get angry at us both. We kind of laugh about it know but we were never close

There’s a two year age gap between me and my older brother. Growing up we hated each other a lot of the time, we fought we argued and we got each other in trouble. That’s what siblings do. The way I remember the stories I was always the innocent party, but that’s not how everyone else describes it, apparently I started a lot more than I remember and I only really started to remember that when I was much older and an adult. If you’d have asked teenage/mid 20s me I’d have told you it was all him. At the same time though, my big brother, no matter how much we fought was always there to protect and stand up for me, and that’s the part of our childhood that sticks out the most for me. We have a younger brother, with a 9 year age gap with me and when he came along I was more interested in helping with the baby than fighting with my older brother and we became closer as we both loved having a younger brother. These things resolve when the parenting is good. My mum was great, she always seemed to know who was at fault and punished the right person, but in the case where it ended in physical fights no matter who instigated it both were punished because we both resorted to violence and she didn’t tolerate that. It’s all about how you parent and the explanation you give children, too many parents punish without having a conversation about the reasoning behind it.

As for the two year old, the only thing you can do is help him adjust and find the positives of being an older sibling. Get him involved in helping and play time with baby, but also spend 1:1 time with him when you can. My partners 3y/o didn’t adjust well to her younger brother, so we got her involved by helping get nappies/wipes and how proud we were and how great a big sister she is and things started to get positive from there. I give her time with her dad without her brother being around and she gets time with me while dad has the baby. Now we can’t take our eyes off them for a second because she wants to play and hold him all the time and gives him her toys to play with.

Older sister to a younger brother here. I was 2 when DB was born and I was definitely not happy about it! The photos from the hospital when he was born are hilarious.

My parents had to get rid of the twin buggy because I was vicious and would try to attack my brother. They had to put him in a travel cot to play because I’d lash out at him, but then I realised I could launch missiles over the top so they had to put a mesh cover over it 😅

We fought like cat and dog until I was at least 19. Just complete clash of personalities. We get on okay now though but can only handle each other in small doses.

All this to say that even having a daughter as a first born doesn’t necessarily mean you avoid any serious sibling rivalry and jealousy!

My middle girl is the danger to both her brothers. She doesn't listen at all. She bites and she punches and pinches. I have to physically get involved 90% of the time once she's got it on her. And I'm not absent or on my phone, I'm not a shouter. I'm 100% consistent and have been from day 1. Although she makes it seem like I'm the worst parent ever the way she behaves sometimes.
Some kids are just the ones to turn off their hearing, to put their needs ahead of others and to be physical. It's up to us to manage it and it's regardless of age or gender. It's hard work and it's exhausting but it's how it is.
Keep going. It's early days yet and once your youngest is a bit more interesting he might calm down a bit. And like you've said yourself, she's here now. He'll have to cop on eventually x

Hi there,

I can see this thread is quite long now but thought I would add from a professional perspective (maybe someone has already done this). I’m a clinical psychologist, I work in a child development and behaviour service.

What you describe, as I have seen others say, is developmentally normal (and what we would expect to see) for a child your sons age introducing a new sibling into a family. You don’t need to worry about dynamics as they get older- it is likely they will fight and also likely they will love each other very much. So long as both children know how much you love them this is extremely unlikely to turn into anything more than a temporary and expected struggle to adapt.

Having said this, as you have said before, this does not mean that you can sit and allow one child to physically hurt another. The most important thing is safety, which means that if you need to keep on moving away or removing yourself during a feed then that is what you have to do.

Second to this is your approach to ensuring both children feel loved and understand that you can’t allow either to be hurt. With this the consistency comes in. Nothing you do is going to work unless you put it in place consistently over time. For a child your sons age you would be looking at having a consistent approach for at least 2-3 weeks before you would start seeing any effect. In fact, you would likely see things get worse before they get better.

as a starting point I would be looking to understand what your son is trying to communicate- is it, ‘I don’t like you giving this other baby all the interaction’, ‘do you still love me too?’ , ‘what the F* is going on here, I liked it better before!’. Maybe he doesn’t understand? Maybe he actually has overwhelming feelings towards her but isn’t old enough to understand how to express those right now. There maybe other things. Then I would be looking at addressing what he is trying to communicate.

It looks like you’re already very aware of the importance of having special time, lots of time with him and on his interests and ample opportunities for rough play. Try to continue with this as much as possible. Then if this is really mainly happening during feeding time (or other specific situations) I would zoom in on them. Make a plan with your husband about how to approach - he needs to be overseeing your sonic you have the baby- maybe he can verbalise things your son might be thinking or feeling whilst they watch a feed together - ‘I wonder if it feels like mummy might be spending a lot of time with baby, but we know that she loves us so much and we are so special, I remember we used to feed you like this too- do you miss that?’. obviously you can’t do this every feed, but start with once/twice a day if possible. During this time I would focus on telling your son how well he’s doing at any point if he is sitting calmly. As I think I saw someone else post, you want to try to make him feel included, needed and important to both you and your husband- so say how much help he’s giving you and maybe notice to him if the baby looks towards him ‘She’s looking at you! She loves you so much!’, ‘Nobody has been able to keep her so calm as well as you, she must really love you!’, ‘I’m so proud of what a calm big brother you are’.

Basically you want to be labelling all the positives and giving as much reassurance as possible.

Try not to shout or react an an extreme way when things do inevitably happen, as if your son is seeking more interaction this can actually meet the need (and you might see laughter, and repetition of the behaviour if this is the case). Instead, try as hard as you can to keep a straight face and say sternly ‘ I love you very much, but I cannot let you hurt the baby.’ Then move away. Don’t say more than this. This is where the consistency is most important, and you’ll likely see a change in a few weeks (after things get worse before they improve- this is called an extinction burst).

mine tangible hung that might help your son could be to read the invisible string lullaby book- it’s about having a strong attachment to your caregivers even when you can’t physically be with them. I read this with my son every night and it opens up the conversation about worries about being away from me/ my husband.

I could probably say a lot more but I’m sure others have said very similar things. It sounds like you’re doing a great job. Try not to worry too much, even if you did absolutely nothing things would change and improve over time (it’d just take a bit longer!)

wallflower

There’s a lot of positive things you can do to foster a beautiful relationship between the two.

The first is to always abide by the “don’t blame the baby rule” - if you ever can’t do something for him because you’re seeing to the baby, phrase it differently, e.g. you’re feeding the baby so say “I can’t play with you right now cos my hands are busy” rather than “I can’t play with you right now because I’m feeding the baby”. This is so important and really effective at reducing resentment.

When the baby is sleeping, try and spend quality time with your son so that his cup is full. Children who feel loved and secure are generally not unkind to others.

Coming down on him like a tonne of bricks will have the opposite effect to what you want, and will create more disharmony and anger in your home. It will also cause your child to become more sly and sneaky about it and it will mean you won’t be able to leave them alone in a room together for even a second in the future. There should be an agreed consequence which he knows about crystal clear in advance (no tv time that day for example) if he does hurt her.

It sounds to me like he has a lot of love for his sibling and this can sometimes turn into aggressive love too - this is where the older child goes to hug the younger one and then squeezes too hard etc. You can reframe this by modelling how to cuddle the baby, speaking in positive statements such as “gentle! Imagine she’s a soft little puppy and we have to be really gentle and kind!” rather than “don’t be too rough! Don’t do this or that etc”. With young children they will basically do whatever the subject matter of your sentence is, whether is has a “don’t” at the beginning or not, so always tell them what you want them to do, rather than what you don’t want them to do. If you have a dolly or teddy you can practise with your child in a playful way how we handle the baby.

If your older child needs something that will only take a minute to sort, but the baby starts crying, try seeing to your older child first. I found with me newborn that he would often stop grizzling within the first 20 seconds anyway, meaning I had time to prioritise the older sibling all along.

Also, you can frame the new baby positively in the older child’s eyes by making them his ally. “oh (baby), I’m not sure I should buy (older sibling an ice cream today, what do you think? Oh, you think I should? Ok then, (older sibling), (baby) wants me to buy you an ice cream.” Etc etc

Remember to double up on the hugs and attention to your oldest whenever possible, it’s a huge change for him.

It looks like you’re already very aware of the importance of having special time, lots of time with him and on his interests and ample opportunities for rough play

My concern is that whilst OP may be aware of the importance, it's not clear that she's putting it into practice. OP has mentioned a couple of times that she has a Velcro baby and questioned how she would be able to do things with just her son with the baby out of the picture, and that's where the husband has to come in. I think it's critical that the son has protected 1 on 1 time with his mum. OP has also mentioned that her son won't sit to do activities she suggests - so you just roll with what he does want to do. If that's charging around the garden then that's what it is. Vital to not let show any impatience to get back to the baby.

Female siblings can be equally as viscious

I had boy then girl. Worked great as they got older as girl more mature so their maturity levels were similar and played well together once baby stage was over

I havent RTFT but I've read OPs. I find this so exasperating to read. I have an older brother and he was so gentle and loving, it was me who was a little terror. I can't believe someone can think this about a 2 year old boy.
It is so damaging to even consider that at 12 years old, a boy could be a threat to his 10 year old sister, wtf. This is based on the slightly jealous behaviour of a toddler!

Boys can be a bit more boisterous in their play than girls but believe me they are no more vicious than girls. Both sexes can be nasty to one another, it's mostly personality driven. In fact I'd say I witness more jealousy longer term with girls than with boys and is is the jealousy here that is causing the issue, which is very common when a baby comes along.
I actually think it's lovely for a girl to have an older brother to be protective when she is a teenager, it wouldn't even occur to me to imagine him causing her physical harm at that age!

When I worked at a pre-school we encouraged the children only to use kind hands if they started to get rough with other children.
have you considered getting your son a dolly and he can mimic with the dolly that you do with your daughter, or get him to help you with the baby, help pick out her clothes, go and fetch you a nappy, or even wipes?
at least if he’s occupied helping with fetching items, it’s taking his mind off what you’re doing with the baby

Try to remember he is a baby too. They suddenly seem like giants but he isn’t he’s a wee baby. My eldest two didn’t have a great dynamic though he likes her as a baby but my youngest two same difference and elder boy - he is so kind to her. Try to not imagine the worst. Kids fight - it’s not the end of the world.

I think this is the worst possible thing you can do. He’s only 3, he needs understanding.
you want him to bond with his sister, not think she’s come along and now mummy is shouting and telling him off.
create some you and him time, show him that there’s still room for him.
on a neurological level, you want oxytocin to be released into the brain, this promotes trust and bonding. Stress, that you will cause by ‘coming down on him like a tonne of bricks’ inhibits the release of oxytocin. You are making the problem worse for him by doing this.
sensitivity, calmness, showing him how to behave instead, praising him. Calmly explaining to him why he shouldn’t hurt her and what he should do instead if he is feeling jealous or angry (talk to mummy, cuddles with mummy, story with mummy). You are the grown up holding his hand through this and showing him how to deal with these big emotions. Making this a positive experience as much as possible. Letting him help Perhaps. Reinforcing how much you love him.

I think this is the worst possible thing you can do. He’s only 3, he needs understanding.
you want him to bond with his sister, not think she’s come along and now mummy is shouting and telling him off.
create some you and him time, show him that there’s still room for him.
on a neurological level, you want oxytocin to be released into the brain, this promotes trust and bonding. Stress, that you will cause by ‘coming down on him like a tonne of bricks’ inhibits the release of oxytocin. You are making the problem worse for him by doing this.
sensitivity, calmness, showing him how to behave instead, praising him. Calmly explaining to him why he shouldn’t hurt her and what he should do instead if he is feeling jealous or angry (talk to mummy, cuddles with mummy, story with mummy). You are the grown up holding his hand through this and showing him how to deal with these big emotions. Making this a positive experience as much as possible. Letting him help Perhaps. Reinforcing how much you love him.

If she’s 3 months old she will benefit from floor time. Use that to cuddle / read stories to / spend quality time with your DS. You also need to talk about gentle / kind hands and reinforce the behaviours you want through praise - ie a simple way is if you want him to be gentle praise / give him stickers when he is. Too many parents expect their toddlers to magically become grown up when a new baby arrives and then blame the kids when their unrealistic expectations don’t turn into reality