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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wish I’d had my kids the other way round

221 replies

Boyfirstthengirl · 25/09/2023 09:22

I feel bad saying this but I am from a family where I’m the youngest and a girl/woman (obviously …) and I have an older brother. We get on well enough now and I do have nice memories of us together as kids, it isn’t all bad. But he was always so rough when we were young, would beat me up, call me names and so on.

To be honest I don’t think my parents dealt with it particularly well as they’d get angry with us both Hmm although to be fair to them I probably instigated some of it but my memory is selective!

Anyway, I have a boy who is 3 in January. I also have a baby daughter who is 3 months and history looks set to repeat itself … he hasn’t taken to her at all and tries to hurt her a lot. I am very worried about having horrible family dynamics. I want to manage this as best I can but struggling with DS - I can’t seem to get through to him, I know he’s jealous but I can’t think what else I can do.

I know I’ll get slated for this but everyone I know whose eldest child is a girl is excited and happy about the baby. I feel like she’s in a really vulnerable position growing up and I have to protect her but that’s also going to alienate my son Sad

OP posts:
SallyWD · 25/09/2023 11:30

Boyfirstthengirl · 25/09/2023 11:21

@Hufflepods i do know that. No one is putting it on a pedestal and I made that clear. But trying to make me feel bad about the fact I obviously have to take the baby along is unhelpful in the extreme, it really is.

@kittensinthekitchen no one is claiming that baby boys are more or less vulnerable than girls the same age. It’s as they get older. A 13 yo boy attacking an 11/10 year old girl means she will be vulnerable- more so then if the sexed were reversed, that is all I mean.

I don't know - I was a big beefy 13 year old when my brother was a weedy, puny 10 year old. DD is now 5ft7 at 13 and incredibly strong. DS is 10, about a foot shorter and has no muscles at all!

TheLightProgramme · 25/09/2023 11:34

You are making this about DC sex when it isn't its about parenting and personalities.

My ds is 2y 8m older than dd and is brilliant with her, they are now 4 & nearly 7 and get along so well, he is protective and kind with her

MoonShinesBright · 25/09/2023 11:39

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

SleepingStandingUp · 25/09/2023 11:40

Op I promise you, 8 year olds are WAY more cooperative than they are at 2. Just because they don't listen at 2, it means nothing. I'm sure you're a great Mom and he will grow into a child who listens and loves his sister. And you will have firm boundaries both ways (cos GOD do my 3, year olds torment their 8 yo sibling) because you know what it's like. That's what will be different this time.

If he's coming towards you and you sense trouble, you need to try and nip it in the bud. Ooh look Alison, Spikes come to give you a kiss. Can you give Alison a kiss Spike? Oh she liked that
Alison loves big brother kisses.

If he puts his hands on her, lay yours on top gently and say yes Spike, that's right, gentle hands. Oh you're such a kind boy.

See if you can almost trick him into doing something different. Cos he's done stuff and it's got a reaction and he doesn't really understand but it worked so he's done it again
You need to try and get a reaction in for something positive.

And if he hurts her and she cries, a firm no Spike, you don't hurt Alison. Big brothers are nice to their sisters. Come and give her a kiss better Spike. Alison says thank you Spike, she gets sad when she cries.

Or get him to do little jobs, and get the baby to say Thank you Spoke, can I have a cuddle now? Oh that's a nice cuddle, can Mommy have one too?

Just give as much attention to the good as you can

ladycarlotta · 25/09/2023 11:41

He's two and his world has been turned upside down. You are his mother and better able to control your emotions and behave with reason and consideration: it's really important you put aside your preconceptions now and parent the children you have rather than imagine they are replicating the relationship between you and your own brother. These assumptions are not going to help anyone.

FWIW I am an older sister to a brother and
a) he is the sweetest, kindest, most earnest and nurturing individual who had/has a far better relationship with our mother than I do,
b) we had hammer-and-tongs physical fights as kids
c) I was sometimes sneaky and manipulative and he did whatever I said because he wanted to please me. Is that a 'girl' thing? I don't know. But siblings terrorise siblings in all sorts of ways and you really can't pre-empt what it'll look like. I was not whiter-than-white just because we were girl firstborn and not boy firstborn.

BeingATwatItsABingThing · 25/09/2023 11:48

no one is claiming that baby boys are more or less vulnerable than girls the same age. It’s as they get older. A 13 yo boy attacking an 11/10 year old girl means she will be vulnerable- more so then if the sexed were reversed, that is all I mean.

Again, not true! This will be dependent on the child’s build at each age. I was always a fairly robust child - not fat at all but not a weedy child. My 9yo DD looks like she would snap in two in a strong breeze but she’s tall. Thinking back to my school days, 13yo boys and 13yo girls were all manner of different sizes and shapes. The same at 10/11.

Stop trying to make this a massive issue now more than dealing with the current behaviour. A 2yo being a bit aggressive is not an indication that they’ll grow up to be a bully. How you parent your child now and going forward will indicate this. PPs’ suggestions of giving him 1-1 time is good. He still needs it. Your DD being in a sling is still very much meeting her needs. My DD2 had to be in a sling most of the day at about 4mo because DD1 was homeschooled during lockdown.

Ilkleymoor · 25/09/2023 11:49

My brother used to hit me in the head repeatedly with the same toy and once shoved me over when I was just walking and I have a scar on my forehead. He is a very gentle man and was in fact a very gentle child but the shock of the arrival of a sibling was just overwhelming for me. My mum basically didn't put me down for the first year. We always had a decent relationship although I do question why my parents didn't just remove the favoured for beating toy...

I think love and not ton of bricks. He needs massive, overwhelming reassurance. This doesn't mean you don't have to constantly stop him from hurting her but do it gently and make sure he has plenty of time just with you. He needs to feel safe too.

Separately I would recommend counselling for your experience with your brother and parents. You deserve that for yourself but also to break the pattern so you don't assume that your son is the same and treat him poorly because of it. I saw that in my own family, when my parents split, my mum did it to my brother who was most like my dad in looks etc. Their relationship was very damaged by it

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 25/09/2023 11:58

OP it's so awful when your second one arrives - beautiful and wonderful etc but also AWFUL! It's normal to feel pulled every way, and like you're being a crap mum to both kids. I cried so much for my baby, who wasn't getting anything like the focus and attention I was ablew to give my eldest, and for my poor eldest, who was used to being the apple of my eye for nearly 4 years, suddenly having to be told no, not yet, wait, get down what felt like ALL THE TIME. Also, the bizarre feeling of leaving an apparently tiny child to go into hospital and give birth, then coming home to a HUGE enormous monster of a child who seems to have doubled in size, volume and general obstreperousness overnight compared to the tiny vulnerable newborn you brought home with you. It's awful!

BUT it doesn't have anything to do with their gender, and it won't last. Honestly, your son is little. He's being aggressive and stroppy not because he's a boy but because he's a toddler. My eldest DD loved the IDEA of a baby sister, and made all the right noises about looking after her etc. This lasted about half a day, and then she became incredibly possessive of me, heartbroken, and rough with the baby. Because the idea and the reality are two very different things.

So yes, protect your little one as much as you can; hammer on 'kind hands', and praise him extravagantly for every positive interaction, even if he's not as 'gentle' as you might wish - learn to tell the difference between excessive enthusiasm and poor motor control vs actual intent; accept the fact he will probably sometimes get a pinch in, just as you will sometimes scratch her with a rough nail by mistake, or cut her with the nail scissors, or or twist her little arm getting her onesie off - she won't be badly hurt and it won't traumatise her, as long as you're attentive enough to head it off at the pass; NEVER leave them alone together, even for a second, until this phase is past.

But it will pass! I have to say your concerns about him still hitting her/attacking her when they're 13/11 sounds crazy to me and makes me think your brother's behaviour must have been very extreme/unusual - I can't think of any children I know who would actually hit/hurt their sibling or playmates routinely past the toddler age. I had big sisters, 2 and 4 years older, and though we would argue we would never 'fight' as in physical violence past about 4/6 years old. Is this something that routinely happens with boys? I would have thought by that age and in that era, they would at least have had it firmly drummed into them that boys don't hit girls.

Anyway, don't borrow trouble. He's two, she's 5 days old - history is not 'repeating itself', their story has barely begun! Keep on protecting her, but don't turn against him. Use words a lot - he may not yet be very verbal (boys sometimes develop more slowly) so help him with his feelings: "It's very hard to share mummy when you're used to having me all to yourself. I can see you're feeling angry/upset/frustrated (whatever it may be); but we have to use kind hands to [baby]; if you want to kick, shall we go outside and kick the ball against the wall? If you want to hit, you can hit this cushion. when you're ready to use kind hands, we'd love you to come and cuddle with us." I know it sounds naff and scripted but I actually found having this sort of stuff 'lined up' in my head stopped me being reactive and shouting or blaming/labelling in a way that sets up and cements conflict ("why do you always do x?").

And definitely when dad gets home, offload baby and give him 20-30 mins of really high quality focus. It doesn't have to be ages, but he has to be reminded he is still hugely special to you, not just a distraction from/threat to the baby. It feels crap on baby, but honestly they get used to what they get, and you are still giving her a huge amount of focus and input. There's a reason, I think, that firstborns are often quite intense and high needs, vs secondborns being quite independent and chilled - they get used to what they get and respond accordingly! Eventually your babies will even out, their size and their capabilities and their needs - especially with two so close in age. Give it time, remember that it will n all likelihood pass, and that you are not your parents, and are not going to allow a situation to develop where your youngest is being consistently hurt by your eldest. Let go of the trauma and the trigger.

In other news, my youngest (2) pushed my eldest (6) off the top bunk of their bunkbed yesterday, so I know whereof I speak (no-one badly hurt!). She was told off on the spot and banned from going on the top bunk anymore, tiny tantrum, forced apology, all done. But later on, completely unprompted, she came and found her big sister, hugged her and apologised. Because she's two, she sometimes actus up because she's two, but she absolutely loves her sister, who loves her too. Watching their relationship with each other grow, watching them learn to play with each other and compromise, has been the absolute joy of my life and my favourite thing about having children, more even than my relationships with each of them. I wish I'd known how beautiful it would be, when I was spending about 6 months crying every day that I was letting everybody down and wishing for both their sakes I'd never had a second!

Emeraldsrock · 25/09/2023 12:04

I agree with op. Friends they have girl then boy seem to have a much calmer dynamic; a daughter that mothers the boy and encourages them into more gentle pursuits. I have boy girl boy. My slightly wild oldest boy does nothing torment my daughter. Where as when I have the two younger ones she sits and has colouring competitions with our littlest boy.
It is what it is. My daughter will grow up tough at least.

Backagain23 · 25/09/2023 12:04

@herewegoroundthebastardbush
Just wanted to say I loved your post, your username, your use of the underrated word "obstreperousness". You are fabulous 🍸

middlesearch · 25/09/2023 12:12

OP have you spent any 1 on 1 time with your son in the last 3 months? I appreciate it's difficult to do for extended periods of time but with a husband on hand it's perfectly doable. You may well have done but the feeling I'm getting is that you don't actually want to, and want your daughter to be present constantly. That is problematic if true.

SprogTakesAQuarry · 25/09/2023 12:12

@Boyfirstthengirl Please don’t feel like you’ve done anything wrong as a parent. You sound reflective, thoughtful and loving.

I understand that practical advice is the most helpful. A pp recommended the siblings book from the How To Talk series. This is a link https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1788708679/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?ie=UTF8&qid=&sr=

I haven’t read this specific book but the other books in their series were incredibly helpful to me.

Good luck.

Uggtrending · 25/09/2023 12:19

I think this is a little silly. I'm the eldest of 3 girls and 1 boy. My brother looks after us all and is quite protective he's 2 and a half years younger than me.

My mum is the youngest and has a brother a few years older than her. He didn't stick up for her as a child and now as adults he doesn't even bother with any of siblings nor his own mother!

pinkunicorns54 · 25/09/2023 12:20

I have 2 girls, and the eldest still went through a phase of not being nice to the youngest.
It was when I was breastfeeding the baby actually - when we switched to formula, the behaviour stopped.

But, what I would suggest is getting some therapy to work through some of your feelings.

Since my second was born I had a lot of feelings crop up about my family dynamics and second born children... therapy helped 😊

fairlygoodmother · 25/09/2023 12:29

I’m wondering if it would help to try to have a moment with him before you feed dd - specifically say ‘let’s read a story together now before I feed the baby’, then maybe he will feel more like he’s your priority. I would directly say no to him coming for a cuddle while you’re feeding because it’s dd’s turn now. When he’s learned to be gentle with her he can join in.
I know this might be a lot easier said than done though if her needs aren’t that predictable.

JustAnotherUsey · 25/09/2023 12:37

I think an age gap creates that caring aspect from siblings, not the boy girl order. My son is nearly 5 years old than his sister and he's been a lovely big brother. I've never had a problem with him hitting her etc. He loves her dearly and they play nicely together sometimes. They do argue sometimes but my son never hits his sister.

YouveGotAFastCar · 25/09/2023 12:41

@Boyfirstthengirl I've got a nearly two-year-old DS. Lots of my baby friends have nearly 2 year olds - a mix of genders - and around half have babies. There's honestly no difference between the two-year-olds and how they treat their sibling, or what gender the next baby is.

From the two-year-olds perspective, they are now sharing their parents. That's a big adjustment. The new baby isn't bringing anything positive to them yet. It's a bit of a slog, and it creates some big feelings that they're not ready for.

Use the same techniques you already use, but be consistent with them. What would you do if he pinched you? Do that. Does he do nursery, or clubs? They can be really useful for giving him a world that is still 'his', and the baby doesn't have much to do with - if it's somewhere you need to stay too, so baby needs to be there, pop her in a sling so she's out of the way and you feel a bit more "his". LOTS of distraction. Special books/stickers/vehicles for when baby is feeding, that go away afterwards. YouTube Kids or an episode of a kids show he likes.

He's two. He's still a baby! And you are projecting what happened to you onto him, and he wasn't there, and it won't be the case here. You've got this, honestly.

Just consistently reinforce in the way that you normally do. Anything more than that will be another big change for him to deal with, and another thing he'll associate with his little sister.

nutbrownhare15 · 25/09/2023 12:43

This site has lots of useful articles on this issue such as this one (scroll down to the reply) Positive Discipline When Toddler Hits Baby? - Aha! Parenting https://www.ahaparenting.com/read/positive-discipline-when-toddler-hits-baby. She has also written a book called Calm Parents Happy Siblings which should set you up with a long term strategy to ensure history doesn't repeat itself

Positive Discipline When Toddler Hits Baby?

When looked at from the child's perspective, he's acting this way because he's too young to verbalize normal feelings that we all would have in his situation.

https://www.ahaparenting.com/read/positive-discipline-when-toddler-hits-baby

LabradorFiasco · 25/09/2023 12:44

Loads of great stuff here amongst the usual ‘spend more time 1:1 with the toddler’. I’ve got a 22 month age gap, DS is 3yo and DD is 16 months, so similar to you. Mercifully both are breastfed so there’s no ‘nursing jealously’ which sounds a bit like what you’re experiencing, since you say feeding time is a trigger. My son can also be pretty aggressive and rough with the baby at times though and I have said similar to myself. It’s all about loving the child you have, rather than the one you wanted, as cliched as that sounds. I know you do love him and want the best for him, but also don’t want the baby to be a sacrificial lamb. A few things that help me - firstly, a totally consistent response to any aggression, both verbally in terms of what I say and physically in terms of what I do. My son is really sensitive to emotions and accusations, so it has to be neutrally pitched or he will escalate or ignore. So it’s ‘I’m feeling worried about [the baby]’/‘is that safe?’/‘is that kind?’ Or ‘I’m moving us away to keep everyone safe’, and physically remove his hands. If he really goes for her, I put her down (she will cry, that’s ok, she’s safe) and physically pick him up to move him to a different room, hold his arms and say ‘I had to move you away because that was not safe. It’s dangerous for the baby. When you’re ready, come and do xyz’. I also put him outside in the garden on his own when he’s exploding (I can watch from the window) and he will often dial himself back down. I am dealing with proper 3yo RAGE though, not just a 2yo pinching because they’re a bit jealous of mummy bf. If you can catch your son early with some consistent verbal intervention, you might be able to prevent escalation into total furious meltdown…
The other thing to check is whether your son is getting enough sleep? One of the beauties of the small age gap can be the toddler and baby sleeping at the same time. So if he’s under 3, I would be wanting at least 40 mins nap in the daytime, potentially closer to 1.5h if he’s a high sleep needs kid. Bed before 8pm. Anything you can to prioritise sleep really. It’s so important for them at this age. For context, my 3yo is not allowed to nap at pre-school (barbarism!) but at home he will do a comfortable 1h nap at 1pm and be in bed for 7.30pm. Baby 2h at 12.30pm and bed at 7pm. I’m only saying this because it hasn’t been mentioned yet and I’ve noticed how much worse my son’s baby-aggressive behaviour is when he’s tired and flagging.

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 25/09/2023 13:35

LabradorFiasco · 25/09/2023 12:44

Loads of great stuff here amongst the usual ‘spend more time 1:1 with the toddler’. I’ve got a 22 month age gap, DS is 3yo and DD is 16 months, so similar to you. Mercifully both are breastfed so there’s no ‘nursing jealously’ which sounds a bit like what you’re experiencing, since you say feeding time is a trigger. My son can also be pretty aggressive and rough with the baby at times though and I have said similar to myself. It’s all about loving the child you have, rather than the one you wanted, as cliched as that sounds. I know you do love him and want the best for him, but also don’t want the baby to be a sacrificial lamb. A few things that help me - firstly, a totally consistent response to any aggression, both verbally in terms of what I say and physically in terms of what I do. My son is really sensitive to emotions and accusations, so it has to be neutrally pitched or he will escalate or ignore. So it’s ‘I’m feeling worried about [the baby]’/‘is that safe?’/‘is that kind?’ Or ‘I’m moving us away to keep everyone safe’, and physically remove his hands. If he really goes for her, I put her down (she will cry, that’s ok, she’s safe) and physically pick him up to move him to a different room, hold his arms and say ‘I had to move you away because that was not safe. It’s dangerous for the baby. When you’re ready, come and do xyz’. I also put him outside in the garden on his own when he’s exploding (I can watch from the window) and he will often dial himself back down. I am dealing with proper 3yo RAGE though, not just a 2yo pinching because they’re a bit jealous of mummy bf. If you can catch your son early with some consistent verbal intervention, you might be able to prevent escalation into total furious meltdown…
The other thing to check is whether your son is getting enough sleep? One of the beauties of the small age gap can be the toddler and baby sleeping at the same time. So if he’s under 3, I would be wanting at least 40 mins nap in the daytime, potentially closer to 1.5h if he’s a high sleep needs kid. Bed before 8pm. Anything you can to prioritise sleep really. It’s so important for them at this age. For context, my 3yo is not allowed to nap at pre-school (barbarism!) but at home he will do a comfortable 1h nap at 1pm and be in bed for 7.30pm. Baby 2h at 12.30pm and bed at 7pm. I’m only saying this because it hasn’t been mentioned yet and I’ve noticed how much worse my son’s baby-aggressive behaviour is when he’s tired and flagging.

This is all excellent advice!

Coughingdodger · 25/09/2023 13:36

The usual people boring on about gender stereotypes. They exist for a reason.

An older sister is unlikely (past a certain age) to inflict serious physical hurt on a younger brother within a couple of years of her age. He will not grow up physically terrified of her no matter how awful her behaviour. Not so when the DB is the older one.

So if - IF - the male child is hitting the younger sibling you have to be extremely tough on that behaviour while he is still young enough that you have control over him. For his sake too. You can be tough on the behaviour without being tough on the child.

How to do it? Be very rapid and very firm. Raise your voice. State clearly the unwanted behaviour and that you won’t put up with it. Remove the younger child immediately and fuss ostentatiously over the younger child (the exact opposite of what he intended).
Any time he’s not being violent, draw him back in and give him attention and praise. Repeat ad nauseam.

When your DD is older, let her know that she can always talk to you about any physical bullying and you’ll put a stop to it. (Likewise your DS can always come and talk to you too if he feels unhappy about anything)

You’re probably very tired and busy atm so everything seems much harder.

ToDamp0rNotToDamp · 25/09/2023 13:48

I understand your concerns OP.

I am the youngest and have two older sisters. The behaviours you’re describing of pinching / pretending to be gentle and then hitting etc is exactly as my parents describe what they did to me. To be honest they beat the living bejesus out of my up until I was maybe 13 - now they’re my best friends in the entire world. Also glad to say their violent nature didn’t make it into adulthood ha!

The above is to say, don’t dwell on the order or gender of your babies as it may well have not have made a difference. You seem like a loving parent who is conscious of protecting both your children; I think that’s the most you can do in this scenario, unless perhaps willing to cough up £££ for a child behaviour specialist (though unnecessary as what you’re describing seems like typical toddler behaviour). Keep correcting your sons behaviour and encouraging gentle play, fingers crossed it comes with time. I’m sure there are going to be instances of your daughter getting hurt that will upset you, but babies and toddlers are far more resilient than we give them credit for.

My sisters gave me a good wholloping round the head with some wooden toys on my first day back from hospital - I can confirm it did not cause lasting damage 😄

KeepTheTempo · 25/09/2023 13:59

@Coughingdodger An older sister is unlikely (past a certain age) to inflict serious physical hurt on a younger brother within a couple of years of her age. He will not grow up physically terrified of her no matter how awful her behaviour. Not so when the DB is the older one

"past a certain age" is the key phrase here. This older child is 2 years old. Tiny.

Should they be allowed to do anything to hurt the baby? Of course not. Should their parent - or unhelpful posts like this - demonise this toddler as someone likely to cause the youngest one to be "physically terrified". Of course not.

This poor op obviously went through a lot of trauma with her own younger brother as a child, has only recently given birth, and is doing her absolute best as a parent of 2. She needs reassurance and support, not messages that cause her further stress and risk bad outcomes for a 2 year old.

KeepTheTempo · 25/09/2023 13:59

*older brother, not younger

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