To wish I’d had my kids the other way round

[Boyfirstthengirl]

I feel bad saying this but I am from a family where I’m the youngest and a girl/woman (obviously …) and I have an older brother. We get on well enough now and I do have nice memories of us together as kids, it isn’t all bad. But he was always so rough when we were young, would beat me up, call me names and so on.

To be honest I don’t think my parents dealt with it particularly well as they’d get angry with us both although to be fair to them I probably instigated some of it but my memory is selective!

Anyway, I have a boy who is 3 in January. I also have a baby daughter who is 3 months and history looks set to repeat itself … he hasn’t taken to her at all and tries to hurt her a lot. I am very worried about having horrible family dynamics. I want to manage this as best I can but struggling with DS - I can’t seem to get through to him, I know he’s jealous but I can’t think what else I can do.

I know I’ll get slated for this but everyone I know whose eldest child is a girl is excited and happy about the baby. I feel like she’s in a really vulnerable position growing up and I have to protect her but that’s also going to alienate my son

@Boyfirstthengirl you’re doing that MN ‘thing’ of quoting things I haven’t said. No one’s obsessing over it. I think you’re just trying to start a fight to be honest. If not, have a think. Are you helping me, or my toddler, or my baby, with your posts? I am not sure who you think I can magic up to care for a baby at weekends, either.

Your entire post centres around it and you seem completely unable to accept that absolutely none of this is to do with the fact that your son is a boy!

From your posts you quite clearly have a husband so I don't know why you think you need to "magic up care for a baby"? Is your husband incapable of looking after his own daughter for an hour? Does this mean you haven't actually been having any one to one time focusing on your son?

FGS! This thread is becoming really unhelpful because people keep latching onto something I’ve said and twisting it.

No, abusive 2 yos don’t turn into abusive 8 yos. What I actually said is that if I can’t get him to listen to me at 2, it doesn’t bode well for when he’s 8.

@MissDollyMix you don’t have to ‘say it gently.’ It’s probably true I am unintentionally harbouring gender stereotypes but it’s based more on what I observe around me, which is girls excited about the new baby and keen to help. I recognise this won’t be universally true (what is?)

But what IS true is that as the younger sibling DD is more vulnerable and more so because she’s a girl. Hence the thread title …

DD would scream the place down if she was put in a cot for long periods. Even now she’s driving me to distraction and I’m holding her

its not unhelpful just because you don’t agree with it. My kids are teens so I’ve parented them as 2 and 8 year olds. It’s much easier to get an 8 year old to listen to you and do as they’re told than a 2 year old!

*I really want to have no hitting or fighting - even in play - as a non negotiable. But it’s being ignored at 2 so doesn’t bode well for 8

Just for the record, I ended up in a fucking soft play 5 days post c section with DS, I’m really NOT ignoring him.*

With your DD though? So you might not see it as ignoring him but it isn't time focusing on him, he's still gone from having your undivided attention all the time to sharing you all the time. You need to work on bridging the gap for him so he can get used to the new family dynamic.

You're very rash with the comments you say about him, painting him out to be a evil abuser who is destined to grow up as an awful person and its all down to him, there's simply nothing you can do about it.
His behaviour as a 2 year old in very testing moments isn't at all an indication of what he will be like at 8 or older, you really need to understand that.

Something else that helped me is highlighting all the ways that the baby is interested in them.

If he sings a song/doing a dance/being a dinosaur, you can say how you loved it (first) then say 'she thought it was great too, look how she was watching you!'. If he brings a nappy over, or she momentarily calms down if he strokes her hand (even at your suggestion - I used to do hands because it's hard for any accidental or semi-accidental damage), make sure you note it. Tell visitors about how much you've loved his song/dance/dinosaur and how he is so good at cheering his sister up / how much she loves watching him too. You might have to work hard to find the moments, but it gets easier as they have more head control and start responding more.

There are also lots of good kids books to help him and you explore this in a 'safe' and fun way, like Baby Swap or Stupid Baby (Stephanie Blake).

On the sling, I'd recommend it too, and it's not about trying to stow her away, but to make sure that he gets some time when the baby is out of sight /out of mind for him. In the same way, when I did nappy changes and baths for example, I used to make it all about the baby, I'd sing and chat and the older ones would have to wait their turn, it's good for them to learn this - but 12 weeks in, it has to be little by little.

I totally get where you're coming from. I was younger than my brother by 2 years. He detested me from the start. We had a horrible relationship growing up, and I genuinely just wanted him to like me as I still looked up to him. As an adult he's a great guy and we get on fine but we're not super close. I also think I lack confidence because he was such an arsehole to me growing up.

I had a girl first and she was very loving to her little brother as a baby. I really do feel that a girl is more likely to be caring to a younger sibling. More likely- I'm not saying all boys are awful to their younger sisters!

It was worst as young teens as we would come home from school to an empty house and he could torment me to his hearts content

As for how you deal with it, I'm not sure! I don't think my parents did it right, but looking back I don't know what they could have done. Not work maybe, so I was protected after school!

But what IS true is that as the younger sibling DD is more vulnerable and more so because she’s a girl.

Absolute rubbish! As children, girls are not weaker than boys! This is generally true of adults but not children. She’s vulnerable right now because she’s a tiny baby and your DS is a 2yo. This would be true if their sexes were reversed!

@Boyfirstthengirl . I honestly think the behaviour is just a feature of your DS's age. I think my older one would have behaved similarly had there been a similar age gap.

DC1 is great with DC2 - unbelievably great. We have been very lucky. But there are five years between them and that will bring its own issues later on.

Things which have helped include:

• DC1 being at school so having his own little world separate from DC2.
• DC1 being told what a great older brother he is by everyone. He had a lot of attention and presents when the baby arrived which meant he viewed her as being very much a good and desirable thing.
• I constantly stress to him how much she loves him. "She likes you best out of everyone. She's so sad when you're at school etc." He apologises to her before running into school.
• DC2 "buys" DC1 little after-school presents when we're out and about. I say "Look what your sister chose for you today" when we pick DC1 up from school.
• I ask DC1 to "show" DC2 how to do stuff when we're out and about at the playground or at the library.
• I talk to DC1 about when he was a baby and show him pictures when I'm feeding DC2. He loves seeing himself as a baby and me talking about it.
• DC1 and I talk about how babies are "hard work" and we chose activities to do when DC2 is napping. I say to him "finally DC2 is having a nap so I can spend some time with my big one". He likes that.
• I tell DC1 20 time a day how fantastic and helpful he is, even for the tiniest thing.

I'm not sure how much of this would work with a 2yo. Personally, if your 2yo needs you to hide the baby away and pretend she's not there and he's your baby a bit more of the time, I'd just roll with that. Small children do generally feel more secure if they think they're the centre of the universe... it's not a bad thing necessarily, it's just how they're wired.

Just going to reply one more time to ask where I should have put my 5 day old while I was in a soft play centre recovering from a section @Hufflepods ?

I guess we should have found a nanny.

I was the older sister, I haaaated my brother for years. I was 4 when he was born and I don't think we gelled until I was 15. Your baby boy is so small still though, just keep repeating yourself about his behaviour and he'll get there :)

I've one older brother and one younger brother. My older brother never fought with me. The younger one frequently did. I have children now and it is the younger girl that can get rough, not the boys. Your children are not you and your brother. They are different children. I think it is good that you will be mindful of how they treat each other but I wouldn't label the boy as a bully just yet.

Thanks @Goldbar that is helpful. I can only try - nothing else has worked!

@Boyfirstthengirl *Just going to reply one more time to ask where I should have put my 5 day old while I was in a soft play centre recovering from a section @Hufflepods ?

I guess we should have found a nanny.*

I don't know why you're just constantly posting ridiculous scenarios, I didn't once suggest you should take your DS to soft play alone while recovering from a section. I'm just saying don't put outings with DS and DD on a pedestal, it doesn't replace the one to one time your DS craves.
You have a DH who is available on the weekends, it isn't impossible to spend time with your son.
You seem to think spending quality time focusing on your son without your DD present is an outrageous suggestion so you clearly don't want to actually engage in any practical steps that will improve your situation other than to demonise your DS.

It is hard constantly to meet the needs of two children. I have a lot of sympathy... my DC1 was essentially left to his own devices for large chunks of time when DC2 arrived, which would have been difficult with a 2yo. I guess it's important to remember when we get frustrated that our limitations are not their fault.

For me, I could say to my older one "I'm sorry that I don't have as much time to spend with you now DC2 is here. I like it when we have time just for the two of us." And now DC2 is older, I'm trying to make good on my promises and leave her behind some times.

Instead of wishing you had your kids the other way round, just focus on helping your son adjust to having to share his home with a sibling.

But what IS true is that as the younger sibling DD is more vulnerable and more so because she’s a girl. Hence the thread title …

This is complete nonsense. A 3 month old baby girl is no more vulnerable than a 3 month old baby boy. By being so rigid thinking with gender stereotypes, you are going to create issues rather than solve them.

And you are the one terming a 2 year old as abusive, not me.

i'm the eldest and i fought non stop with my sibling growing up. literally fist fights til he was bigger than me ! we get on great now though.

also my daughter bit and fought every child she came into contact with at that age. she grew out of it at about 3 and a few months old, coinciding with her going to preschool & learning that she doesn't need to be scared/jealous of other kids.

if she had had a sibling then, I could guarantee she'd have tried to do the same.

I agree, you're projecting. I was the eldest and probably too rough with my youngest brother and my DD is pretty violent with her little brother! I also know a girl who's constantly attacking her little sister.
If it turns out your son is rough with your daughter then you'll deal with it. You'll have learnt from the mistakes made by your parents.

This is right - pre puberty girls aren’t weaker than boys. It’s at puberty when this changes.

it’s not because he wants me then gets annoyed he can’t. He has a certain smirk and gleam in his eye

This worries me, and it just has to be projection from your own children. There’s no way a 2 yo is coming over with a smirk and a gleam in his eye to hurt a baby.

8 yo will be easier to direct than a 2 yo as they’re more rational and able to understand.

Sorry OP I can hear your frustration- having two children is a massive change and it’s difficult for everyone to get used to. I know you’ve already been told you are generalising in your Op (I came on to say that too- I had a super gentle and very excited 4 year old when his sister arrived on the scene, she’s by far more rough and tumble) but let’s focus on what’s actually going to help you.
Reward charts. Stickers for good behaviour. A sticker for every time he’s helpful and gentle with his sister. A certain amount of stickers for good behaviour and he gets to choose his treat for the weekend. Also obviously a negative chart- a certain amount of stickers there and the treat not only doesn’t happen but he loses a privilege like tv time (or whatever he really cherishes doing).
Insane amount of praise and cuddles for good behaviour and really laying the law down when he doesn’t. Also, until he can be trusted not to hurt/upset his sister when you are out of eye shot, he will simply have to come with you wherever you go. Make these things BORING - he gets to sit on the floor in bathroom and just wait for you in the shower. He gets to help you carry laundry and hang it. Until he can be trusted around his sister, he’s not allowed to play nicely in the same room as her anymore. Don’t think about removing her from her routines, remove the naughty child.

Good luck, it’s difficult but you will get there.

@Hufflepods i do know that. No one is putting it on a pedestal and I made that clear. But trying to make me feel bad about the fact I obviously have to take the baby along is unhelpful in the extreme, it really is.

@kittensinthekitchen no one is claiming that baby boys are more or less vulnerable than girls the same age. It’s as they get older. A 13 yo boy attacking an 11/10 year old girl means she will be vulnerable- more so then if the sexed were reversed, that is all I mean.

I think @Hufflepods has offered some helpful advice and you're clearly struggling to see the practicalities of implementing it, but that doesn't change the fact that it's worth considering.

Both my youngest were in slings for most of their first year + because a baby just needs closeness and snuggles and it left my hands and attention free to meet the bigger ones' needs. It wasn't 'bundling them away' it was a practical solution to the problem of having more children than hands.

I also made sure I carved out time with them, not by hiring a nanny, but by seeking out opportunities to let my husband take over with the baby, or letting them sleep in the bouncy chair and finding ways to spend some time really focusing on the big ones without the distraction of a baby even if it's only for 10 minutes at a time.

It sounds as though you are almost resigned to this dynamic after three months, especially when you suggest that a two year old will still be behaving the same way at eight!

You've only been parenting two children for a few weeks - you don't have to have all the answers yet! Being aware of a potential problem is a large part of solving it, but if you reframe it as 'my son needs a LOT of attention at the moment' it is a lot easier to find ways to help him rather than always waiting until he has done something e.g call him over for a lovely gentle cuddle as soon as you're sitting down rather than reluctantly allowing him to come over and 'cuddle' violently if he catches you. I'm sure you can change the dynamic with a bit of work, but you can't blame your son for wanting things back the way they were before.

I had a girl followed by a boy and #1 resented the existence of #2 from the start. Still slyly hurts him now and they’re 12 and 8.

Your issue really isn’t an older boy/younger girl dynamic but an older child/younger child dynamic. It’s very normal.

My dh had an older sister - she actively tried to hurt him every time MIL’s back was turned and certainly wasn’t a loving sister (still isn’t).

My first was a boy and an absolutely doting older brother.