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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

"Its like downtown Kabul round here"

344 replies

PyongyangKipperbang · 19/09/2023 02:34

This has been bugging me all day.

Took my father (72) to a hospital appointment today as my mother was suffering with a migraine.

As we drove from our village through town he made this comment. It was school run time and we had just driven past two women who were wearing traditional muslim attire , wearing full matching outfits, one in black and one in the most stunning purple. Forgive me for not using the correct names but I would rather not try than get them wrong. There were a fair few families dressed similarly, but more that were in jeans and trainers!

Our small town is very very multicultural. My ex husband is Jamaican by heritage, British by birth as ex MIL and late FIL were both part of the Windrush generation. There is a large Asian community and now a lot of Eastern Europeans too.

Me - What?! They follow a different religion and dress that way, so what? And at least their dd's get to go to school.

Him - Oh well if youa re going to be like that about it

Me - Yes I am. In Kabul W X Y Z (my dd's, his GD's) wouldnt be allowed to go to school and would be forced to wear certain clothes, unlike here where we just let people be.

Then he said "well thats what I think and I can say it if I think it" and I said "Not in my car you cant. and if you think that they should all go back to where they came from, that includes Z (youngest DD, mixed race)"

Silence for a second and then "Thank you for the lift, I will get out at the lights and walk the rest of the way" I said to stop being childish. Then a dickhead cut me up and I called him as such and father said "Oh I bet all the bad drivers are only white british....." in a mumble. I said "Well as it happens, that one was" dropped him off at the hospital and all was done.

He has been cobby with me since. He needed a couple of favours later today as he can no longer drive and Ma couldnt because of her head and it was couched very much as "Your mother needs this and I cant go" rather than, as it would normally me "would you do me a favour?"

I wasnt wrong to pull him up on this was I? He isnt "elderly", just fucking "ist" when it suits him and inclusive when it doesnt. For example, DD1's partner is autistic which is thinks is made up and attention seeking...."apart from [him]". He has always been like this but I strongly suspect I am going to get the silent treatment for a while (unless he needs something). And yes, he does read THAT paper.......

We are very close and I love him very much and he me. But when Mr Daily Hate comes out......not so much..,,,

OP posts:
Pollyputhekettleon · 19/09/2023 08:05

Teateaandmoretea · 19/09/2023 07:59

What? Women should wear what they want to, pretty simple. No idea what you’ve been eating for breakfast.

Also where do you get 70 years ago from? I’m in my 40s and I remember women wearing scarves on their heads.

Edited
Show quote history

If you read your post and my response a few times you might get it. I'm not diverting this into some dumb 20th century liberal argument about women's right to wear what they like. Your father is not complaining that hijabs, niqabs and burqas haven't been banned, as you know perfectly well. He's complaining that England in his lifetime has undergone a process of mass immigration unprecedented outside of wartime which he believes to have been more negative than positive and damaging to social trust and cohesion, that he thinks the growth of Islam is a bad thing for the civilization he belongs to because it's an ideology incompatible with it, and that multiculturalism is a failed policy. He simply expressed it in working class terms, which you enjoy sneering at.

Stokey · 19/09/2023 08:06

@PyongyangKipperbang YANBU. Lots of apologists on this thread similar to the Montserrat one a few days ago.

@Buffypaws Flowers it's heartbreaking.

BansheeofInisherin · 19/09/2023 08:06

I wear Western clothes all the time. Maybe twice a year, I wear a sari because it's a beautiful, graceful garment, and I look good in it. I certainly look far better than in a polyester dress from the high street.

Good to know that if anyone sees me, they will be thinking I should fit in better.

Teateaandmoretea · 19/09/2023 08:08

Pollyputhekettleon · 19/09/2023 08:05

If you read your post and my response a few times you might get it. I'm not diverting this into some dumb 20th century liberal argument about women's right to wear what they like. Your father is not complaining that hijabs, niqabs and burqas haven't been banned, as you know perfectly well. He's complaining that England in his lifetime has undergone a process of mass immigration unprecedented outside of wartime which he believes to have been more negative than positive and damaging to social trust and cohesion, that he thinks the growth of Islam is a bad thing for the civilization he belongs to because it's an ideology incompatible with it, and that multiculturalism is a failed policy. He simply expressed it in working class terms, which you enjoy sneering at.

Show quote history

You seem to be missing that his objection is to what women wear. That is exactly what he picked up on.

I doubt this is coincidence. He also isn’t my father.

Stroopwaffels · 19/09/2023 08:08

Sounds like father in law. He hates everyone who isn't exactly like him - male, white, British born and bred, preferably from his town.

Everyone else is strange and foreign (even if they are from Wales or Scotland) and immigrants are all thieves and rapists. Every single one of them. 🙄

Patineur · 19/09/2023 08:08

AprQ · 19/09/2023 03:50

HAHAHA I do have to laugh at some of the comments on here.

‘People of his generation,’ ‘It’s because of his age’ comments are all bullshit. Isn’t it interesting how a 72 year old man would have to get with the times in terms of technology and whatever other changes in life.

You go from a typewriter to a computer to maybe even a laptop. You go from having no phone at all, then to a brick phone and then dare I say it, possibly even a smart phone!

You go from using coins on the bus to only being allowed to pay via oyster or contactless card. I can go on and on and ON about all the changes the OP’s dad and many others have had to go through during their life. However, when it comes to race and ignorant comments, it’s all very much ‘well look at his generation, he doesn’t know any better.’ Well he bloody well should do.

Stop using age as a way to excuse peoples behaviour. There’s a film called ‘The Old Oak’ coming out this month and a lot of you should watch it and educate yourself.

I think you did the right thing OP. If you posted, ‘my dad said this and I didn’t say anything because I didn’t know what to do AIBU,’ so many people would be quick to say ‘why didn’t you call him out at the time?!’ Can’t win on here sometimes🙃

All of this. As someone of a similar age, I find those views pretty horrific, and most people I know within the same generation would say the same. Your Dad is racist because he's racist, not because he's 72. It's not as if younger generations can claim to be free of racists and bigots.

mambojambodothetango · 19/09/2023 08:09

I reckon so many people with perhaps limited education and world experience of his generation truly don't think they are doing anything wrong. When they were growing up their parents taught them that respect and being a good person involved scrubbing your step daily combing your hair and minding your Ps and Qs in front of the neighbours, in case word got back to the vicar. Young people and even younger middle aged people now know that respect and being a good person ultimately means being tolerant and open minded.

Yes, they should catch up. And yes you are right to point out that actual downtown Kabul is very different. And absolutely try to get him to understand that his views are part of what makes life difficult for ethnic minorities living in Britain - including his own DGC.

After a good start, with reasonable points, you then resorted to 'I'm right, you're wrong' tactics, which is a common mistake and leads to further alienation. Next time, try a bit more of the 'your comments make me uncomfortable because it reminds me that you see difference as a negative' or whatever.

Mistressanne · 19/09/2023 08:10

Beautiful3 · 19/09/2023 07:47

I actually agree with your dad. I personally feel that people are welcome to cone here but they should fit in with us, and our ways. I had to work in sparkbook in Birmingham. I had to walk around, running errands. I was the only white person, dressed in western clothing. Quite a few men gave me dirty looks, my collegue told me it was probably due to wearing a sleeveless top and skirt. I felt intimidated and foreign. I think your dad raised a good point but no-one will agree out of fear of being perceived as racist. I'm originally from another country.

I perceive you as a racist.

VerasRaincoat · 19/09/2023 08:10

My inlaws are in their 60’s (60 & 62) and are racist, sexist daily Mail readers.

My mother in her 70’s, is the opposite of racist. Protested against apartheid (got arrested for this), anti nukes, anti whaling, anti racists etc, she spent her personal life dedicated to pacifist, anti racist and humanitarian causes. So the age isn’t it at all.

Nasty people will be nasty whatever decade you’re born in.

GKD · 19/09/2023 08:11

Considering the 70s also had questionable views about relationships/women, I wonder if the apologists feel the same about that?

eg dad said ‘look how short those girls skirts are, looks like a brothel down here’ is that him just being a product of his time?

Pollyputhekettleon · 19/09/2023 08:11

Teateaandmoretea · 19/09/2023 08:08

You seem to be missing that his objection is to what women wear. That is exactly what he picked up on.

I doubt this is coincidence. He also isn’t my father.

Show quote history

No, you're deliberately misunderstanding him and you continue to pretend to do so because you don't want to actually discuss the subject with anyone who's not a pushover and who you can't bully out of your car for disagreeing with you.

Pollyputhekettleon · 19/09/2023 08:17

BansheeofInisherin · 19/09/2023 08:06

I wear Western clothes all the time. Maybe twice a year, I wear a sari because it's a beautiful, graceful garment, and I look good in it. I certainly look far better than in a polyester dress from the high street.

Good to know that if anyone sees me, they will be thinking I should fit in better.

You don't for a moment believe that if 'anyone' sees you they'll be thinking you should fit in better. And you also don't believe that saris produce the same reactions as 'traditional muslim attire' and you know why. The amount of dishonesty on this topic is really staggering.

dontchaknow · 19/09/2023 08:17

I'm old and white and therefore must be assumed to be racist. But I'd rather see women - well, blokes as well - no matter what race, colour or creed, dressed appropriately in the street. But tits out, bellies out, thongs and bum cracks on view are not for the school run thanks. And if you're wearing leggings, please make sure they're not transparent, and that they really do cover your wobbly cellulite. I really would rather see a hijab than a half naked body in the street. But on the beach or somewhere like that, anything, or even nothing at all is fine.

Embarrassednamechangeadoddle · 19/09/2023 08:20

I’m shocked so many have voted YABU. Well done for challenging him op. You can love someone and challenge when they say probelmatic things.

BansheeofInisherin · 19/09/2023 08:20

@Pollyputhekettleon why? Because there are too many "bad"Muslims in this country and not enough "good" Hindus? Or because you think the Muslim women wearing hijabs are forced to wear them? Do say.

Batalax · 19/09/2023 08:23

Gently pulling people up will educate more than creating tension by being confrontational. That will have the opposite effect to what is being intended.

justasking111 · 19/09/2023 08:25

We have two sets of neighbours, one retired, welsh, the other Asian. One is disparaging of the Asians across the road. The other disparaging of westerners and their immorality. I get on okay with both of them but cringe at times. Each in their own way are out of step in todays world.

BansheeofInisherin · 19/09/2023 08:28

@justasking111 of course racism is not limited to old, white people. As we see with Suella Braverman.

SunnieShine · 19/09/2023 08:28

Mummy08m · 19/09/2023 03:27

I mean fair enough if you don't want to give him lifts any more. But it should be kept separate otherwise you're almost bullying him to pretend to agree with you, just because he needs the lift.

Exactly this. You are trying to prove your moral superiority but actually doing the opposite.

Pollyputhekettleon · 19/09/2023 08:30

BansheeofInisherin · 19/09/2023 08:20

@Pollyputhekettleon why? Because there are too many "bad"Muslims in this country and not enough "good" Hindus? Or because you think the Muslim women wearing hijabs are forced to wear them? Do say.

I don't play those games. I thought that was obvious. By all means continue to be dishonest, you get to play victim that way, which is always nice.

Pollyputhekettleon · 19/09/2023 08:32

justasking111 · 19/09/2023 08:25

We have two sets of neighbours, one retired, welsh, the other Asian. One is disparaging of the Asians across the road. The other disparaging of westerners and their immorality. I get on okay with both of them but cringe at times. Each in their own way are out of step in todays world.

No, they precisely represent today's world, particularly in the west. This is exactly what you get when you have the ingenious idea of putting every culture on earth into one 'society'. As was predicted, endlessly, by many people throughout the course of this historically unprecedented social experiment.

EsmeSusanOgg · 19/09/2023 08:34

People in their 70s were young in the 60s, 70s and 80s. They are aware of the issues caused by racism and homophobia and most other isms you can think of, a lot were instrumental in shifting attitudes away from social conservatism.

That is to say 'people of his generation' is not an acceptable excuse for bigotry amongst baby boomers.

And it is not unreasonable to highlight issues with a throw away bigoted line on a car journey. Racism breeds where it is unchallenged. I think OP did well to bring home how what he was saying could include his own grandchildren and was highly offensive. He likely thought he was being funny, and has realised he was not. Thus the sulk.

BansheeofInisherin · 19/09/2023 08:35

Well @Pollyputhekettleon you won't say what the dishonesty is, so you know I have to play the "victim card." However, you do say that you think multiculturism has failed. That tells me everything.

When the NHS collapses, and brown and black women are being imported to look after the elderly here, I bet no one will be complaining about their nurses and care workers wearing hijabs.

SunnieShine · 19/09/2023 08:39

OP - were you already in a bad mood because you had to give your father a lift, and looking for a fight with him?

MehtotheChristmasrunup · 19/09/2023 08:43

JustAnotherPoster00 · 19/09/2023 05:19

Well done OP call it out each and every time, and ignore some of the PP's here who clearly agree with his view, going from their 'hEs aLLoWeD HiS oPiNiOn' nonsense

He isallowed an opinion though. As is everyone whether you agree or not (see the trans debate or the need for women to dress “modestly”). Surely the end goal is that everyone behaves respectfully towards everyone else and their way of doing things even if it’s odds with yours.

For what it’s worth I mutter about the rich, white bloody Londoners all the time buying up houses in my desirable rural village.