"Its like downtown Kabul round here"

[PyongyangKipperbang]

This has been bugging me all day.

Took my father (72) to a hospital appointment today as my mother was suffering with a migraine.

As we drove from our village through town he made this comment. It was school run time and we had just driven past two women who were wearing traditional muslim attire , wearing full matching outfits, one in black and one in the most stunning purple. Forgive me for not using the correct names but I would rather not try than get them wrong. There were a fair few families dressed similarly, but more that were in jeans and trainers!

Our small town is very very multicultural. My ex husband is Jamaican by heritage, British by birth as ex MIL and late FIL were both part of the Windrush generation. There is a large Asian community and now a lot of Eastern Europeans too.

Me - What?! They follow a different religion and dress that way, so what? And at least their dd's get to go to school.

Him - Oh well if youa re going to be like that about it

Me - Yes I am. In Kabul W X Y Z (my dd's, his GD's) wouldnt be allowed to go to school and would be forced to wear certain clothes, unlike here where we just let people be.

Then he said "well thats what I think and I can say it if I think it" and I said "Not in my car you cant. and if you think that they should all go back to where they came from, that includes Z (youngest DD, mixed race)"

Silence for a second and then "Thank you for the lift, I will get out at the lights and walk the rest of the way" I said to stop being childish. Then a dickhead cut me up and I called him as such and father said "Oh I bet all the bad drivers are only white british....." in a mumble. I said "Well as it happens, that one was" dropped him off at the hospital and all was done.

He has been cobby with me since. He needed a couple of favours later today as he can no longer drive and Ma couldnt because of her head and it was couched very much as "Your mother needs this and I cant go" rather than, as it would normally me "would you do me a favour?"

I wasnt wrong to pull him up on this was I? He isnt "elderly", just fucking "ist" when it suits him and inclusive when it doesnt. For example, DD1's partner is autistic which is thinks is made up and attention seeking...."apart from [him]". He has always been like this but I strongly suspect I am going to get the silent treatment for a while (unless he needs something). And yes, he does read THAT paper.......

We are very close and I love him very much and he me. But when Mr Daily Hate comes out......not so much..,,,

To be honest I don’t think you dealt with it in the best way. I think you overreacted a bit. Everyone can make stupid comments from time to time.

I'm in my 50s and remember seeing photos of Muslim women wearing miniskirts and going to university in Kabul. A good deal of water has flowed under many a bridge since then, obviously.

The idea that women anywhere wear what they please, in a vacuum, is one that needs to be challenged.

This thread is interesting for the strong suggestion that an older British man needs to change his attitude, while the relatively recent phenomenon of women and girls in all parts of the world wearing the garb of women in 11th century Arabia - for various reasons, mostly traceable to financial support of the Wahhabi sect by the Saudi regime - is something that must not be questioned, even though it is a divisive and troubling issue for many Muslims. Western paternalism has a tendency to run amok.

But that is entirely the problem with entirely religious clothing. Bondage gear is for private interests. Religion after years of wars and bloodshed is also considered a matter of individual discretion. Religion and politics are famously not discussed at polite dinner tables. France is secular by law so that religion doesn’t top trump non believers .
Having anyones private viewpoint banded about in public ( especially one you aren’t allowed to take issue with ) makes people uncomfortable .

I totally agree Wahabism should be questioned. I just don't think the best way to do it is to sneer or discriminate against women based on dress.

This happened in India. I can't link now but girls in school were not allowed to attend class by authorities because they were in hijabs. The girls simply stayed home. And lost out on an education. You could criticise their families for being so obstinate, but the end result is that women always lose because they are trapped between society and authority.

really?
so she carries a pocket full of nails at all times, just in case?

Some guy dressed in fetish gear probably thinks he should be able to wear it anywhere he pleases not just on a pride march. He may even argue it aligns with some kind of life choice/belief. He may even feel discriminated against. Unfortunately for him, the norms of this country mean he would be run out of town if he tried. Burkas etc are more acceptable in that sense perhaps because of the religious link and there is more tolerance for religious expression in this country than sexual preferences.

Other places have different norms. I guess a night out in San Fran wouldn't be complete without a guy in tight leather

I did not. You need to work on your reading comprehension.

It has been suggested that the more a group of settled people are exposed to "newcomers" "different" or "others", the more the two groups assimilate. Of course they have to have the initial wish in some shape or form.
The more people can mix with the "differents" ( and I hate the term) the more likely they are to see see similarities. Arguably this is why accidently or by design that more nonwhite actors appear in adverts and key roles on TV. It is noticeable too, that the minorities are "successful", "professional " or "settled".
Of course it's let down by any groups who want to hide in their homes or intentionally self isolate.

Interesting to see that this thread has morphed into a discussion of Muslim women's clothing, instead of focusing on a racist old man. OP was dead right to challenge him, even if it makes no difference to him. You always challenge racism, always.

That's the Contact Hypothesis. I think it first became popular in the US in the 1950's. Wildly disproven countless times since but it doesn't die because it's politically convenient.

Among other things you said, "They chose to cling to hateful ideologies." Who are the they you were talking about?

"I think old fascists should be held to the same standard as anyone else." What about just fascists or are young fascists OK in your book.

No, it is not "the truth". Plenty of older people know better and plenty of younger ones are nasty racists. Just look at the lineup of the average EDF march

I hope you don't mind me asking but I am curious. I have looked up Wahabism, it seems a strict branch of Islam, is that right? I also read it has been spreading more into Pakistan over recent times. Would that be why there seems to have been a change in how women of Pakistani heritage are dressing where I grew up, multicultural inner city area in England. Used to be shalwar kameez and a long scarf now it is much more common to see burkas or similar clothing.

I have wondered what the change was as it seems much stricter than it was for their grandmothers who are my contemporaries.

Ignore me if it is a silly question but I think we won't learn if we don't ask but obviously you don't have to educate me.

I think you sound awful, the first part of your reply was fine, but you didnt need to go on and on. I am sure he knows that he doesnt live in Kabul, and that girls there are not as lucky, you sound patronising and he should have told you to stick your car and your luft

While recognising that anecdotes aren't data, I grew up in the era of "But Hassan down the road's a good chap". It was very, very true that people holding racist views would make exceptions for the brown-skinned people they knew personally.

Is is, maybe, a problem of definition? Familiarity did not eliminate the racist opinions but it did eliminate real-world discrimination, within communities at least. Those communities could be quite big, for example my generation of Black Country teenagers. Our crowds were so mixed, it almost feels like a utopia now.

At the same time and place, racist beatings were happening. Mixing doesn't solve the problem but it sure as hell ameliorates it.

Well, do you know that those doing the beatings had no contact with the outgroup? Anyway, the goal of contact hypotheses social experiments is to eliminate racist views, not individual acts of prejudice. Your distinction between the two, while of course absolutely correct, would be considered rather problematic you know! If the racist opinions can't be eliminated by contact, and they're not, then contact doesn't work. The goal isn't a society where people have racist opinions but don't act on them. It's far more utopian than that.

@Iwasafool wahabism is not a stricter version of Islam, in fact they reject a lot of the core principles of islamic faith hence end up doing a lot things really far from islamic practic3. its an offshoot at best started by someone called abdul wahab najdi who was funded and armed by the brits in order to break up the ottoman empire.

unfortunately oil money has been used by certain middle Eastern countries to spread it far and wide.

women covering is not necessarily connected to this. I know quite a few ladies who wear niqab (only women of my grandma's generation from certain families wore the full burqa in Bangladesh, none wahabis) they are sufis.

Islam throughout its history goes through phases of secularization/moderation followed by phases of religious revival. There's a constant cycle where a new generation rises, criticizes the older generation for having strayed from properly practicing their religion, and demands a return. Later, the tide turns again and people take their religion more lightly again. Globally we entered a period of Islamic revival in the 1970s, it may be running out of steam again at the moment. Until the next time of course.

People will attempt to tell you Wahhabism isn't really Islamic at all, just a creature of those devious Brits. If you take the time to learn about the history of Islam you'll understand that it's simply one of many manifestations of the same pattern. I don't think there's an exact parallel to it in Christianity, although the cycles of enthusiasm for, and then fading away of, evangelical protestantism in the US are relatively similar.

One thing that's weird re assimilation is that by this stage I would have expected to see many more mixed couples but its still actually comparatively quite rare

I'm almost certain that what math means is that her friend gets angry. A bit like 'spitting venom'. A figure of speech.

Apologies if you were being sarcastic.

Oh, forgot to say, all racism should be challenged. In children all the way through to elders. Casual racism, abhorrent, abusive racism and 'nice' racism (for example 'Black people are great at singing/dancing' or 'Aren't those Koreans so good with computers?'). It should all be challenged. Good for you OP!

Right, so what you're saying is that burkas ARE within the scope of the 'norm' in the UK then?
It's just that previously you tried to say they weren't.

I don't find your stance consistent or coherent.

If people feel that 'uncomfortable' about a woman wearing a long flowing garment or having part of her face covered, that is very much their problem.

If someone banded (sic) about their 'private viewpoint' by wearing, say, an 'I Love Kylie' T-shirt, or a 'Save the Whales' tote bag, would that make people as uncomfortable as this hypothetical woman apparently does?
It seems to me that some points of difference seem to be considered OK and some not, and which ones and why is interesting to look at.

Thank you for taking the time to explain.

I suppose it is a bit like puritanism changing things in England and then the restoration and theatres opening again etc. Quite a wild time and then the Victorians having to cover table legs and so it goes on? Of course envangelical Christianity in America is another example as you say.

Thank you, it is very interesting and does explain why the young women in my old city seem to have a much more conservative way of life than their grandmothers did. I suppose it seemed strange to me as those grannies were girls I knew who were very westernised, went to school in the same uniform as everyone else and seemed different to their mothers who seemed to be living a life that was more like their life in Pakistan than their life here. I suppose I would have imagined that the next generation and the next would have become more and more westernised but it doesn't seem like that for everyone. Probably different in other places but it was how it was where I lived. Your timeline fits, I'm looking at it through the eyes of the 1960s so if things started to change in the 70s that seems relevant.

Maybe it is a bit like Irish Americans being more Irish than the Irish in Ireland, like the River Dance guy being the very famous Irish dancer even though he was American.

Thanks for taking the time, sometimes it is hard to ask these things IRL and I don't want to be intrusive but adding to understanding is a good thing.