"Its like downtown Kabul round here"

[PyongyangKipperbang]

This has been bugging me all day.

Took my father (72) to a hospital appointment today as my mother was suffering with a migraine.

As we drove from our village through town he made this comment. It was school run time and we had just driven past two women who were wearing traditional muslim attire , wearing full matching outfits, one in black and one in the most stunning purple. Forgive me for not using the correct names but I would rather not try than get them wrong. There were a fair few families dressed similarly, but more that were in jeans and trainers!

Our small town is very very multicultural. My ex husband is Jamaican by heritage, British by birth as ex MIL and late FIL were both part of the Windrush generation. There is a large Asian community and now a lot of Eastern Europeans too.

Me - What?! They follow a different religion and dress that way, so what? And at least their dd's get to go to school.

Him - Oh well if youa re going to be like that about it

Me - Yes I am. In Kabul W X Y Z (my dd's, his GD's) wouldnt be allowed to go to school and would be forced to wear certain clothes, unlike here where we just let people be.

Then he said "well thats what I think and I can say it if I think it" and I said "Not in my car you cant. and if you think that they should all go back to where they came from, that includes Z (youngest DD, mixed race)"

Silence for a second and then "Thank you for the lift, I will get out at the lights and walk the rest of the way" I said to stop being childish. Then a dickhead cut me up and I called him as such and father said "Oh I bet all the bad drivers are only white british....." in a mumble. I said "Well as it happens, that one was" dropped him off at the hospital and all was done.

He has been cobby with me since. He needed a couple of favours later today as he can no longer drive and Ma couldnt because of her head and it was couched very much as "Your mother needs this and I cant go" rather than, as it would normally me "would you do me a favour?"

I wasnt wrong to pull him up on this was I? He isnt "elderly", just fucking "ist" when it suits him and inclusive when it doesnt. For example, DD1's partner is autistic which is thinks is made up and attention seeking...."apart from [him]". He has always been like this but I strongly suspect I am going to get the silent treatment for a while (unless he needs something). And yes, he does read THAT paper.......

We are very close and I love him very much and he me. But when Mr Daily Hate comes out......not so much..,,,

For goodness sake, you're determined to have an argument. Fetish gear is more controversial than burkas, but (as far as I know) neither are illegal in public and both are likely to raise eyebrows. I don't wish persecution on any woman for wearing a burka. I certainly don't think we should legislate against them. However, they do NOT fit the clothing norms of this country. I'm sorry that upsets you but it is true. We aren't all living in downtown Kabul. If you go to downtown Kabul you won't find any women dressed like me.

Well, I'd say 'discussion', not 'argument', and I thought that was rather the point of being on here.
Your stance on 'norms' IS incoherent, I'm afraid, and trying to bring in sexualised fetishwear just weakens it further.
The women in the OP's scenario are not living in downtown Kabul either; that's just the attitude of her unenlightened-at-best father. Which you are now echoing.

This feels like a fruitless argument rather than a productive discussion because we can't agree on the facts. The UK is not a Muslim country. Google says there are 2.8 m Muslims. Even if half wears a burka (they don't) that makes 1.4 out of 64 mil, or just over 2%. There are likely more men dressed as women than women in burkas. When a person decides to present themselves in attire that didn't fit the norm (be that punk, goth, religious wear or other) then people will notice. How is that controversial? I'm just starting the facts.

Well, it is not a 'fact' that 'When a person decides to present themselves in attire that didn't fit the norm… then people will notice.' That's your opinion and maybe your experience.

'The UK is not a Muslim country' is a problematic statement in the context of a society that's considered to be pluralistic. In a pluralistic society it is not meaningful to try to define the society by what you think it isn't.
Your diversions into goth, fetishwear etc are very disingenuous, as is the 'I'm just stating the facts' stance you're taking up now; previously you've expressed a wish for 'more enthusiasm to adopt the ways of the country by people who have made this country their home.' (which again brings us up against the question of, in a pluralistic society, how do you define the 'ways of the country'?)

You repeatedly used and invoked the term 'Christian values' until you were challenged on it and rowed back.

And it is interesting that you've said that 'The veil is hugely visible rather than a private symbol of worship'; how about a Christian working (e.g.) on a supermarket till wearing a cross? You do not mention scenarios like that.

The long and the short of it is, it's hard not to read your posts as posts by someone who has an issue with a particular group of people.

This reminds me of how our current PM's mother, Sudha Murthy, spoke recently about how she is judged when she travels to the UK or the US, because she wears a sari, a bindi, traditional gold jewellery and so on. People think she is a submissive Hindu wife under the thumb of her husband. Actually, she is an engineer, a co-founder of her billionaire husband's company, an author ( albeit terrible books) and a philanthropist. She is no submissive wife. She just doesn't want to wear a polyester dress to fit in.

Ugh I meant the current PM's wife Akshata Murty's mother. Not the PM. How do I edit on here?

A sari and gold jewellery is a bit different to a Burka.

A co-founder of her husband's company? Doesn't that make it their company not just his?

I don't think jewellery denotes religious faith. I'm a Christian but I often wear a Hand of Fatima necklace that was a gift from a Muslim friend.

I don;t like seeing women shamed because of their dress, that's all. We should be looking deeper, not spitting nails at women who wear burkhas in the supermarket.

For the second bit, you would have to read up about Infosys. Co-founder wrong word, perhaps. Investor and currently chair-person of their charitable foundation.

Probably too late to edit now but if you look at your post and in the top right hand corner there are three dots, if you click there the last option, if it is still an option, is edit.

Good luck, I'm usually too late to do it.

Sorry, wasn't being picky. I was just worried that a woman was being undersold if you see what I mean.

I don't think anyone should be shamed, although some of the local schoolgirls wear skirts that are so short I can see their buttocks and that is getting a bit close although if I'm honest it tends to make me want to laugh as it reminds me of my dad referring to my mini skirts in the 60s as "pelmets" and they did actually cover my backside. Not sure what he'd think of skirts that short but you know they are full of confidence and obviously like the look so good luck to them. Bit draughty today though.

In my whole post that's what you focus on
You very much miss my wider point. Perhaps you do so deliberately.

No just pointing out that wearing a cross, a Star of David or a Hand of Fatima doesn't actually mean you follow the faith those symbols are connected with. Makes it different to say the burka, I don't know anyone who just decides that today I won't wear my jeans but I think I'll wear a burka.

I'm sure there are other symbols but just giving examples.

I do know what you mean. My point is that this is just one small part of why I find Bloo's posts/argument disingenuous at best; and in the context of all the things Bloo says, it does give the impression that she has an issue with one particular group.

Incidentally, on choosing whether or not to wear a burka: I've been acquainted with a British Pakistani Muslim woman for quite a while – she was running/staffing a food stall I used a lot. She always wore a headscarf (using that word as I'm not confident that I can use all the terms correctly).
My DP and I asked her and her company to cater an event for us and when she turned up at the venue with all the food she didn't have her headscarf on. I didn't recognise her and had to do a double-take But the point is, she clearly did choose to leave off the headscarf, for whatever reason.

I haven't rowed anything back, I merely specified at each stage. It is true to say we live in a pluralistic society. We also live in a democracy. We live in a secret society. We live in a Western society with traditions and cultural norms embedded in our collective Christian past AND further back in time. We could arguably be called an inclusive and tolerant society. We are all these things. I hardly see your point. The point is we do not live in a Muslim society, nor a Hindi, Jewish or Scientology society.

The Burka does not form part of the clothing norms of this country. Necklaces are however part of the clothing norms. I think you are looking for disingenuousness where there isn't any. And you are also seeing an imaginary Britain where one in three women are covering their faces for religious reasons.

The irony of the idea that I'm the one seeing something imaginary when I've never mentioned how many women I think cover their faces

And 'not rowing back' – please. You used variations on the phrase 'Christian values' several times, until someone queried it; only then did you say, 'I could easily have said secular'. The obvious question being, so why didn't you?

Do you think we live in a Muslim society?

No perceiving about it- this person is a racist!

I've said really clearly (I thought) that we live in a pluralistic society. I do have to wonder, still, why if you meant 'secular' you didn't just say 'secular' from the start.

Bottom line, and to the point of this thread: two women in headscarves/flowing 'modest' garments, in a crowd of people not wearing those items, does not make a place look like downtown Kabul.
Anyone who says it does is being at best silly, at worst hateful and, yes, racist; and the OP was perfectly reasonable to make clear that she doesn't want to hear remarks like that in her car.