"Its like downtown Kabul round here"

[PyongyangKipperbang]

This has been bugging me all day.

Took my father (72) to a hospital appointment today as my mother was suffering with a migraine.

As we drove from our village through town he made this comment. It was school run time and we had just driven past two women who were wearing traditional muslim attire , wearing full matching outfits, one in black and one in the most stunning purple. Forgive me for not using the correct names but I would rather not try than get them wrong. There were a fair few families dressed similarly, but more that were in jeans and trainers!

Our small town is very very multicultural. My ex husband is Jamaican by heritage, British by birth as ex MIL and late FIL were both part of the Windrush generation. There is a large Asian community and now a lot of Eastern Europeans too.

Me - What?! They follow a different religion and dress that way, so what? And at least their dd's get to go to school.

Him - Oh well if youa re going to be like that about it

Me - Yes I am. In Kabul W X Y Z (my dd's, his GD's) wouldnt be allowed to go to school and would be forced to wear certain clothes, unlike here where we just let people be.

Then he said "well thats what I think and I can say it if I think it" and I said "Not in my car you cant. and if you think that they should all go back to where they came from, that includes Z (youngest DD, mixed race)"

Silence for a second and then "Thank you for the lift, I will get out at the lights and walk the rest of the way" I said to stop being childish. Then a dickhead cut me up and I called him as such and father said "Oh I bet all the bad drivers are only white british....." in a mumble. I said "Well as it happens, that one was" dropped him off at the hospital and all was done.

He has been cobby with me since. He needed a couple of favours later today as he can no longer drive and Ma couldnt because of her head and it was couched very much as "Your mother needs this and I cant go" rather than, as it would normally me "would you do me a favour?"

I wasnt wrong to pull him up on this was I? He isnt "elderly", just fucking "ist" when it suits him and inclusive when it doesnt. For example, DD1's partner is autistic which is thinks is made up and attention seeking...."apart from [him]". He has always been like this but I strongly suspect I am going to get the silent treatment for a while (unless he needs something). And yes, he does read THAT paper.......

We are very close and I love him very much and he me. But when Mr Daily Hate comes out......not so much..,,,

He's only 12 years older than me and I'm not racist it xenophobic. He's unwilling to change.

@Zebedee999 that's truly awful.

the 'product of his time' wasn't meant as an offensive comment, just in that things were different in the early part of the 1900s and that it is difficult to adjust to change.

It's not unreasonable to see and comment upon the changing culture of the place we live in. 'Downtown Kabul' is a comment on the rise of people who follow Islam in a country that is culturally and historically Christian. Are we to cover our eyes? Are we not to think these thoughts? Some countries legislate on the attire of their nationals and visitors. The UK is a progressive society. On the world stage we are a tolerant nation. We don't legislate on clothing (within the realms of decency), but I do wish there was more enthusiasm to adopt the ways of the country by people who have made this country their home.

If I visited a Muslim country I would cover up like the other women, regardless of the law. When I lived in France, I didn't protest foie gras out of respect for their traditions. I learnt the language out of respect for the people I interacted with every day. I wouldn't, equally, live in parts of Spain because of the bull fighting - that would be too much to be respectful of. Do you see? If people love living in this country, they should learn the language, dress and behave largely in line with how the others do.

Lot of ageism on this thread!

I'm 68, and not a racist. My late parents weren't racist either, and they'd be in their 90s if they were still with us.

I don't think she was vilifying every Muslim woman but I was replying to you asking why she would think people would have a problem with it and I was giving a reason why she would think that.

Like Akshata Murthy and Rishi Sunak, I guess. Model immigrants. You can take the money from the mouths of the poor as long as you dress in a Me and Em midi and behave largely how other Tories do.

@LakieLady That's what I was going to say. Bit offensive to all the people over 70 who aren't racist. Its 2023. A 72 year old was a teenager in the 1960s. People talk like he was born in 1842.

My elderly white uncle was an antiracist campaigner in the 1960s.

Maybe it’s time to “educate” young people about ageism? They seem eager to show their virtuous credentials on the subject of racism so I’m sure they’ll be delighted to learn how not to be ageist.

Eh? I don't subscribe to 'model immigrant' expectations. Remember I was one. The key is intention.

I was surrounded by British expats who refused to learn the language. After decades sometimes. It's rude. There would also be a certain number who hated the French and how the French did things. This is clearly unpleasant and then sets up a challenge to the French to accept people not born in their country who don't like the people of that country (talking purely from my experience with white British immigrants living in France). While if a Brit showed willingness to learn and demonstrate a love of the French culture, they would embrace you. That is the minimum in politeness I think, nothing to do with perfection.

I'm not sure what I said that was so offensive. OP did put words in his mouth. But crack on.

@BlooDeBloop that's nice that you think that. would you like to go and speak to the orthodox Jewish community about how they should behave/dress/eat/speak in a manner more aligned to the 'christian' values of this country? I'll wait....

"traditional muslim attire"

Like the women pictured below in Kabul in the 70's? He's lived through Muslim extremists changing the rights of women and them then being brought here. Today a number of Met officers have been suspended, but we have to embrace a religion that tells us we are second class and men's behaviour is our fault.

@Ponoka7 how the taliban behave has as much to do with Islam as the kkk does with white people/Christianity. incidentally the taliban were put there by the us during the cold War as a way of pushing back the Russians.

Afghanistan has a huge cultural issue with misogyny. not to do with Islam.

there is nothing second class about being a Muslim woman. and it's incredibly offensive to Muslim women to assume this. do you think we are all idiots? that we would all enmasse follow a faith if we felt we were being subjugated? all the Muslim women who are successful professionally, politically, those who are islamic scholars?

wearing a hijab doesn't make you oppressed just as wearing a mini skirt makes you free. as long as you wear what you want, it's nobody else's business.

People, especially the OP, conflating issues here in their rush to virtue signal. No one wants you fools as allies btw. Objecting inwardly to seeing Muslim women and girls covered from head to toe is a feminist issue. You insult our brave Iranian sisters who are dying for the right to dress as they please -this is absolutely not about dressing modestly or our headscarves, but being shrouded from head to toe whilst the menfolk are comfortable in vests and shorts. Women should be free to dress as they please, not according to some medieval interpretation of a religious dictat

@Blackbyrd so you are saying that Muslim women who wear a hijab or 'cover head to toe' have no right to wear what they want? that only western women can determine what feminism is? all of us feminists who wish to cover count for nothing? just as Iranian women should not be forced to wear the hijab, women choosing to wear it shouldn't have to deal with this kind of attitude.

I think perhaps you need to read up on what feminism is.

What about saris? Is that OK? Where do you draw the line? Or as pp said, Jewish women?

I totally agree that women should dress as they please. But is it only Muslim women who don't? How can you tell? Is it only people who wear Western clothes that have chosen to dress as they please?

My parents have started making offhand racist remarks. They've got more of an excuse - they're in their 90s - but were anti-racist until the past few years.

TLDR: It's not their real opinion.

It comes from their friends. Their world has shrunk due to reduced mobility and they rely on the kindness of neighbours for little bits of everyday help. This means they can't really choose their company. They just nod along in neighbourly chats; it's the wrong situation for a political/moral argument.

The common phrases they hear become part of their own verbal repertoire, pretty much unconsciously. There are dozens of "things you just say" in everybody's life, and even more that you insincerely agree with. My analysis is that racism is, for them, similar to my agreement that the heat is unbearable (I like hot weather!)

I tend to pick them up with "Did you just make a racist remark?!" I don't engage with the ensuing justifications because they aren't thought-through viewpoints. I'll say "Still racist" and "I'm surprised to hear you say that". Sometimes they'll backtrack. Either way, I'm not contributing to the expected flow of verbal nonsense so it dies away.

When I first moved up here, I had to put up with diatribes about my drug addiction ... because I'm on antidepressants 😂

Thread's moved on but I was replying to @PyongyangKipperbang's OP.

Ohh good, glad to read the “he’ll be dead soon and then you’ll be sorry” sanctimonious responses.

My dad is dead too, but it’s not unreasonable to follow up when a family member says something stupid.

Do the Jewish women wear covers over their faces? Do the men wear comfortable western clothing while their wives wear black drapes in the summer heat? Culturally Christian values in this country include social welfare, equality, education, freedom of movement and expression. Clothes broadly in line with British society are wearing top and bottoms, caps or hats, scarves, raincoats. Not included are masks or veils that cover the face. As part of the culture you would not expect a naturalised British citizen to wear winter clothes in summer, or bikini/daisy dukes on the high street in winter. The great thing about Britain is there are very few rules, either legally or socially. There is great latitude where people generally feel able to wear what they want. My French friends loved London for this exact reason - self expression through fashion. An odd hat or bright swishy robes will turn heads and not always in a bad way.

But it is a challenge for many people to see community level changes in values. And yes, these changes may be visually signalled in the sense that the new community wears x or y.

Ok, you have clearly specified the immigrant rules 101
No veils or masks
Men to be dressed the same as women
Christian values are all about education and social development, not colonialism or slavery or wars for WMDS, ooh no
No daisy dukes on the high street ( Damn, really wanted to break that last rule).

@BlooDeBloop 😂😂😂i suggest you do some reading about orthodox Jewish traditions and what they wear.

and mask not being part of UK culture? where were you during the pandemic?

if people want to cover and are not bothering you, what's your issue?

and surprise surprise all the Christian values you mentioned are also core islamic values. incidentally the tolerance you mention also includes religious dress of other faiths.

and I don't particularly care what other people think of my fashion. I take pride in being an old fashioned feminist who wears whatever she wants. men can wear what they like and as someone who has lived in the tropics being covered in light fabrics in the heat is usually a better option than shorts.

ps thank you for explaining what normal British dress is. my substandard Muslim woman brain had no idea! I guess I must be too hot under my hijab!

I see you studiously avoided the point of my post 🙄

@BlooDeBloop genuinely I am curious. have you had many interactions with Muslim women who cover? how would you feel if you walked in to the operating theatre and I was your doctor? I don't normally cover my face but at work we all wear masks and I wear my headscarf. would you feel unsafe because I am Muslim? that I am being oppressed while managing the list? (I probably am because the surgeons are always playing some awful music)

would you feel that while working for the NHS for 13 years, paying my taxes and living here I was still not integrated into the community because I am wearing an article of clothing which looks different?

I understand your point re community's feel they are changing and that can be difficult for some. but the inherent judgement in your statements regarding islamic beliefs and those who practice them is difficult to ignore

Any time someone bores on about Christian values I stop listening. It's like the US going on about its liberal democratic foreign policy. Depends on which side of the guns you are on and what the colour of your skin is...

If you had said secular values, then yes.....