"Its like downtown Kabul round here"

[PyongyangKipperbang]

This has been bugging me all day.

Took my father (72) to a hospital appointment today as my mother was suffering with a migraine.

As we drove from our village through town he made this comment. It was school run time and we had just driven past two women who were wearing traditional muslim attire , wearing full matching outfits, one in black and one in the most stunning purple. Forgive me for not using the correct names but I would rather not try than get them wrong. There were a fair few families dressed similarly, but more that were in jeans and trainers!

Our small town is very very multicultural. My ex husband is Jamaican by heritage, British by birth as ex MIL and late FIL were both part of the Windrush generation. There is a large Asian community and now a lot of Eastern Europeans too.

Me - What?! They follow a different religion and dress that way, so what? And at least their dd's get to go to school.

Him - Oh well if youa re going to be like that about it

Me - Yes I am. In Kabul W X Y Z (my dd's, his GD's) wouldnt be allowed to go to school and would be forced to wear certain clothes, unlike here where we just let people be.

Then he said "well thats what I think and I can say it if I think it" and I said "Not in my car you cant. and if you think that they should all go back to where they came from, that includes Z (youngest DD, mixed race)"

Silence for a second and then "Thank you for the lift, I will get out at the lights and walk the rest of the way" I said to stop being childish. Then a dickhead cut me up and I called him as such and father said "Oh I bet all the bad drivers are only white british....." in a mumble. I said "Well as it happens, that one was" dropped him off at the hospital and all was done.

He has been cobby with me since. He needed a couple of favours later today as he can no longer drive and Ma couldnt because of her head and it was couched very much as "Your mother needs this and I cant go" rather than, as it would normally me "would you do me a favour?"

I wasnt wrong to pull him up on this was I? He isnt "elderly", just fucking "ist" when it suits him and inclusive when it doesnt. For example, DD1's partner is autistic which is thinks is made up and attention seeking...."apart from [him]". He has always been like this but I strongly suspect I am going to get the silent treatment for a while (unless he needs something). And yes, he does read THAT paper.......

We are very close and I love him very much and he me. But when Mr Daily Hate comes out......not so much..,,,

Wading in against better judgement to reply to @therealcookiemonster's question: "I don't normally cover my face but at work we all wear masks and I wear my headscarf. would you feel unsafe?"

No, your eyes and the surrounding area are visible. Humans have a strong need to see eyes, this is an age-old truth.

When I have to talk to someone with a lattice over her eyes - or anyone wearing reflective sunglasses - I have to force myself to act as if there's some kind of connection between us. My instincts, like almost everyone's, tell me they're hiding something and I should keep my distance.

What would he be right about in this situation? That their local village really did look like 'downtown Kabul'? I very much doubt it, but I haven't been to Kabul, have you?

@GarlicGrace and how you feel is perfectly OK. really if someone is working in a client facing role they should wear something which enables easier communication, I have no issue with that.

very few Muslim women wear a full burqa in the UK and nor is it a requirement of Islam. some do wear a niqab which is essentially like wearing a mask. but those ladies that wear it normally take it off at the workplace to facilitate communication.

but it some choose to fully cover and be SAHM or lead a secluded life, why should we judge?

my point is that generalising about a whole group without being familiar with the intricacies of their practices is not helpful.

why would it be against your better judgement to reply? am I an ogre?

I'm areligious if such a thing exists. I could easily have said secular. The phrase cultural Christian was to encapsulate that idea. Many Western secularist ideas, values and mortality stems, whether we like it or not, from our Christian past. Fwiw I 100% agree with your take on liberal us peace mission blah blah.

"traditional muslim attire"

Just to point out that Muslims are not all one monolith. They are not all the same. Traditional for whom? In your desire to criticise him you are veering towards some of the same opinion.

However, good that you called him out on it. I would wonder if that kind of attitude is displayed around your kids. Though I do not think he said 'they' should all go back where they came from did he?

I understand you feel there is a pointed judgement towards Islam in my posts. I'm glad you see there will always be some people who find it hard to adjust to changing communities. I think that is a normal human response and rather than labelling it as something grotesque and never to be aired, these things should be allowed to express themselves, maybe allow space for ideas to flow and minds to change.

I do believe that Islam in particular poses challenges in the West. The veil is hugely visible rather than a private symbol of worship. Before COVID times covering the face was seen as potentially threatening (crash helmets in banks, hoodies covering faces of loitering teens at dusk). This is part of my cultural norm. There is an underlying philosophy or belief that people like myself find hard to grapple with, about women dressing modestly while the men have freedom. This is because we've been brought up in a culture of equality of the sexes and freedom of expression. This is a clash, isn't it, of values?

To make my point, I saw similar clashes in France when the political vegetarians (often Brits) wanted to change the meat based school lunch menu. Obviously the clash is less important than the ones we're discussing here, but not to the French farmering community actually. They were very upset at the change they saw in their communities. I was the immigrant in that situation, with outsider eyes, seeing all views to a degree. It felt like there should have been more compassion and understanding from both sides.

Exactly this. Twisting themselves in knots to excuse it. Do they do this IRL do you think?

@BlooDeBloop I absolutely agree with you on the need for open airing of views as that is the only way views can evolve and tolerance and acceptance attained. I also empathise with the 'alienation' some feel within their own communities.

but that is why I am engaging with you and with this thread because dialogue is essential.

we can't ignore that islamophobia is very much a problem and it is insidious. even people who are very well meaning internalise it without realising. because people know very little about the actual theology (including muslims) and judge it based on daily mail headlines (not saying you are doing this) and what they subjectively observe (through the lens of their cultural values).

equality for women is definitely a part of Islam. how we dress has nothing to do with that. incidentally the requirement for Muslim women is simply to wear modest clothes and cover their hair. no one is allowed to force them and this has nothing to do with men but the personal relationship between a Muslim woman and her Creator.

are some men utter bastards and force women to cover up? yes. are some men utter bastards in the west and force women to wear certain clothes? also yes.

*‘Or was it an observational comment on the fact that there were a lot of Afghans speaking pashto.

I mean, I can remember walking into a bar in Spain and saying it felt like being in London because it was full of English people.’*

Hilarious. Yes the situation in the OP is just like a Brit commenting on the number of fellow Brits on the Costa del Sol. No racist connotations at all.

Bless the racist apologists falling over themselves to excuse obvious racism 😂😂😂

To answer your other point, I almost certainly would not notice your headscarf and mask in an operating theatre. If I clocked it I most certainly would not make any associations about your qualifications or suitability to do the job in hand. Why would I?

My experience of Muslim women is positive and mainly from my time at university. There they didn't cover and would often join in with a drink (non alcoholic) on Fridays or a meal out or coffee breaks

I do admit to feelings of sadness when I see the large Muslim lady who struggles down/around/back home on foot from Tesco's almost every time I go. She has no car and carries all the shopping while wearing a heavy body robe, black headscarf and black face mask. I once saw her with her husband, who had his hands free, walking ahead of her in comfortable clothing. Do I judge? I admit I do.

Integration is a tough cookie. I never felt fully integrated into French life, even while I paid taxes etc. From the outside though, others would say I was well integrated and point to those things (language, taxes etc). I was indeed the model immigrant. But I was still 'the English neighbour'. So I have no comment to make about your integration. Only you can know that.

My mum's a racist and bigot too. These people are products of their times.

No point railing against it. We're not going to change them now.

What a lovely post. It has really touched me @MrsMarzetti thank you x

I suppose people might worry that women aren't actually choosing it. I do know a Muslim woman who divorced, threw off the burka, bought some jeans and a t shirt, I thought she was very brave as that first outing must have been difficult. She says she very much didn't want her DD to have to wear it and her ex has stopped all contact with her and the children. His main concern when they split up was that she shouldn't shame him by wearing western clothes. Well that's just what she wanted to do, wear the clothes I mean not shame him.

I'm sure this doesn't apply to all Muslim women but I don't suppose she's the only one. It is very different to wearing a scarf.

Oh FGS please stop.comparing British expats to POC immigrants. It is not the same.

I do admit to feelings of sadness when I see large British women who have shot their faces full of Botox and fillers struggling around the supermarket filling their trolleys with beige ready meals and looking with intense bafflement at the spice aisles, while their husbands stride ahead with six packs of beer and The Sun...

@BlooDeBloop in the incidence that you mentioned. I would also judge. but the judgement is how that man is a twat and not fulfilling his islamic obligations of helping his wife. what you observed is cultural/man being a twat not to do with Islam.

I feel sometimes ppl confuse integrate with assimilate. someone can be a fully paid up member of british society but eat different foods/wear different clothes/believe the moon is made of cheese. some individuals who immigrate and dont even learn the language for example - that i agree is a problem. but many muslims who wear hijab were born here and are not even immigrants and shouldnt feel the need to take it off to 'fit in'

When I speak with women like you I'm like I agree with everything you say. However, when I see Muslim women out and about they don't appear to be choosing their lives in the way you present. How they live may not be prescribed in the Koran but it is in the culture. I may not be islamophobic (in fact I know very little about Islam to hold much against it) but I think I am opposed to the 'culture of Islam' as it's widely seen in public. I hope you understand the distinction I'm trying to make.

am I an ogre?

Not as far as I know 😂 I felt I was wading in as this has become a battle between a few posters with strong opinions! I've only got a strong view on that one little bit (hidden eyes). I am ideologically opposed to ANY religion that dictates dress codes for EITHER sex, but that's outside the focus of this debate.

@Iwasafool well what the husband said says it all. for him his wife covering was about him, nothing to do with Islam. in the Qur'an it literally says "there is no compulsion in religion".

I understand people worry about women not "choosing it", but that worry often becomes thinly veiled racism where Muslim women are perceived as not having agency compared to other women.

I wasn't trying to be crass, I was trying to draw lines of understanding about how communities live and learn to coexist. I'm using my lived experience if I'm allowed.

On your sadness point I do judge those women and men too ☺️. Although we don't like to admit it, people judge. All the time. In the interests of full disclosure, I'm sure people judge me for not working and being a permissive parent.

We need to understand more about what judgment means in a community context. How communities cohese or breakdown. I feel like so little is known or understood. I know the Islam question is a hot potato and that is in part because of its visibility.

@BlooDeBloop I mean that is a fair enough observation. just be wary of making assumptions though.

because the other end of that as Muslim women is that we get patronised and discriminated against.

@therealcookiemonster I’m wondering what your point is about Orthodox Jewish women? Some wear wigs or scarves wrapped around their hair. They cover their upper arms, collarbones, and legs are in tights. They do not cover their faces, and their dress is modern, just what they consider “modest”. Orthodox men stand out a lot more as they wear a variety of distinctive hats (with kippah under the hat), black suits in all weather (except sects like Satmar where most men will wear an 18th century frock coat, knee pants, and white stockings), and tallit.

Believe me the Muslim women I know, just a handful so a small sample, are strong characters, the woman I referenced being a great example, but it must be hard to do what she did if you feel that not only your husband but your family and your community will all view what you are doing as shameful. Not to mention finding your first job and being responsible for feeding and housing your children. I know not all Muslims share the same cultural beliefs but I suppose it is likely that if you are in a marriage like hers then you are likely to be part of a family/community with similar views.

The happy ending is her children have grown up to be lovely people, all been to university and all incredibly close to their mother. She had it tough but she must be proud of what she has achieved.

my point is that this is a community which dresses differently (it was not specific to Orthodox Jewish women per se) to the general British population and that no one is attacking them because the problem isn't dressing differently, it's islamophobia.

just in case it wasn't clear, it wasn't a dig at orthodox Jewish practice. all religions should be able to dress however they deem appropriate. that is my point.

BlooDeBloop, I think someone would have to be pretty dim not to see a difference between a woman in the supermarket with her face covered with a veil and someone in a crash helmet in a bank.

The notion of the UK having one particular and monolithic clothing norm or culture is just meaningless. For good reasons and for less edifying ones, for much of the UK's history it's been home to people from all kinds of countries and cultures, dressing and looking all kinds of different ways.

It is ironic that you wax lyrical about the UK being a place where 'There is great latitude where people generally feel able to wear what they want', and yet do not feel that this applies to people who want to wear a veil or 'black drapes'.

It's interesting that you throw around the phrase 'culturally Christian values' until challenged, and then – of course! – all you meant was 'secular values', and you could just as easily have used that phrase instead, you just didn't...

I also note the appearance on the thread of that old favourite trope that if we can't see someone's eyes we struggle to connect with them and our 'instincts' (which of course we all act on, all the time) tell us we cannot trust them. And we simply cannot get past that

I don't think many people would demand assimilation over integration. I think as a basic requirement to be 'integrated' to a minimal degree good language is key. From my own experience, the three main reasons acquisition fails is 1/ cognitive ability (previous education level, age, or disability) and 2/ value of the adopted culture, 3/ fear (affects men more than women, to speak in the second language and make a hash of it can feel humiliating). When learning a language with perceived low value, acquisition is much harder and the final mastery level is lower. Whether fair or not when a person presents with a rudimentary or non existent spoken English the receiver is likely to judge that person poorly i.e. they don't value English ways of life. It's a leap but I think that's the conclusion reached, rightly or wrongly.