"Its like downtown Kabul round here"

[PyongyangKipperbang]

This has been bugging me all day.

Took my father (72) to a hospital appointment today as my mother was suffering with a migraine.

As we drove from our village through town he made this comment. It was school run time and we had just driven past two women who were wearing traditional muslim attire , wearing full matching outfits, one in black and one in the most stunning purple. Forgive me for not using the correct names but I would rather not try than get them wrong. There were a fair few families dressed similarly, but more that were in jeans and trainers!

Our small town is very very multicultural. My ex husband is Jamaican by heritage, British by birth as ex MIL and late FIL were both part of the Windrush generation. There is a large Asian community and now a lot of Eastern Europeans too.

Me - What?! They follow a different religion and dress that way, so what? And at least their dd's get to go to school.

Him - Oh well if youa re going to be like that about it

Me - Yes I am. In Kabul W X Y Z (my dd's, his GD's) wouldnt be allowed to go to school and would be forced to wear certain clothes, unlike here where we just let people be.

Then he said "well thats what I think and I can say it if I think it" and I said "Not in my car you cant. and if you think that they should all go back to where they came from, that includes Z (youngest DD, mixed race)"

Silence for a second and then "Thank you for the lift, I will get out at the lights and walk the rest of the way" I said to stop being childish. Then a dickhead cut me up and I called him as such and father said "Oh I bet all the bad drivers are only white british....." in a mumble. I said "Well as it happens, that one was" dropped him off at the hospital and all was done.

He has been cobby with me since. He needed a couple of favours later today as he can no longer drive and Ma couldnt because of her head and it was couched very much as "Your mother needs this and I cant go" rather than, as it would normally me "would you do me a favour?"

I wasnt wrong to pull him up on this was I? He isnt "elderly", just fucking "ist" when it suits him and inclusive when it doesnt. For example, DD1's partner is autistic which is thinks is made up and attention seeking...."apart from [him]". He has always been like this but I strongly suspect I am going to get the silent treatment for a while (unless he needs something). And yes, he does read THAT paper.......

We are very close and I love him very much and he me. But when Mr Daily Hate comes out......not so much..,,,

@BlooDeBloop have you looked into the availability of english language classes? the last time I looked, the waiting lists were around a year long where I live. my last housekeeper (from Eastern Europe) was desperate for the course, but just couldn't get a place and the kind of work she could do was severely restricted as a result.

You're right. Orthodox Jews stand out but perhaps no more than many other people. People wear all sorts nowadays. I have a lovely friend who wears gone with the wind peasant dresses with no irony 😁. I think I would be far more likely to clock a trans woman than an orthodox Jew. But that's what's so interesting about the reaction to veiled women. There is a part of me that is shocked to see it. I'm sorry but it's true. And I can only think it's the way in which it challenges my conceptions of the society we all live in.

Oh bless her. There are tons of independent esl teachers online but I'm sure price will put a lot of people off. Back in the day I self taught but I came at it as an independent learner and few people do it well that way. However, classes only get you so far. It's catch 22: you need a job to learn the language, but you need the language to get a job. It isn't easy for anyone which is why you need a long term commitment and where the 'value' part comes from. If you value the language highly enough you climb the barriers to learning it.

and I said "Not in my car you cant. and if you think that they should all go back to where they came from, that includes Z

You were the one that jumped to conclusion here though OP and put words in his mouth. So on this basis YABU and took an I'll judged comment too far by assuming that he was thinking this

I’m heartened by the almost unanimous support for the religion of Islam, but baffled as to why that acceptance, or even celebration, doesn’t extend to Christian religions?

If I point out that Judæo-Christianity forms the basis of Western society would people disagree? If so, upon what do you consider it’s based? Or, if you agree with me, can you explain why this is considered a bad thing and with what, if anything, you’d like to replace it?

What gets me is people who are being racist and have no idea of their background. There was a YouTube video on DNA which was really interesting, I'm sure there was one that said he hated a certain country and it turns out his ancestry was that country!

Like I would say I'm white british, so would my parents and their parents and that's our ancestry. I did the family tree and it's not white british

forms the basis of Western society is overreach. It's pervasive in our cultures, yes. Still, we can choose to ignore most or all of it. Things like the justice hierarchy are holdovers from religious structures, no longer expressions of it.

I'd like to replace all religions with secularism. I am not keen on any of them. Including my own. What I am also not keen on is judging women by their clothes. Usually descends into Islamophobia and bigotry. Then into a phobia of anyone who looks different or dresses differently. And eventually a lecture about Christian values.

You are not heartened. You are deliberately misunderstanding the thread. Christians might pray for you but none of them will entertain or engage with your goady, divisive nonsense. You are showing your complete lack of respect for all heritages and faiths.

That’s like saying your ancestors had absolutely nothing to do with your existence though. You can’t opt out of facts because they don’t accord with your feelings.

I’m sorry. Where have I engaged in lectures? Or judging women by their clothes or any form of phobia or bigotry? Please point it out, otherwise I shall assume you’re talking about a fictional poster rather than me?

I am religious. Please explain in what fashion I am showing a lack of respect for all heritages and faiths? Your post makes absolutely no sense.

Hate to disappoint, but I don't think MotherofGorgons was talking about you personally.

That's a ridiculous non-argument. I'm saying past beliefs leave residues, and that this isn't the same as forming the entire basis of society. Current UK society doesn't give a shit if I sleep around, wear shorts, have my own job & control of my finances, live with a man I'm not married to, have children while unmarried, use contraception, laugh loudly, get drunk, answer back to a man, read my horoscope and never go to church. While Judæo-Christianity held sway, all the above (and a lot more restrictions) were illegal.

This oppressive past doesn't explain my existence in the way that having ancestors does - except insofar as my ancestors managed to survive this nonsense long enough to have children.

Aw, poor thing. I’d not realised she couldn’t use the quote function and had used it accidentally to address me directly. Maybe someone could explain how it works?

Thanks for being one of the good guys and being actively anti-racist, OP.

I'm British Pakistani, fair skinned and light haired and don't wear hijab so most people assume I'm European. I do experience racism but probably only 2-3 times a year.

When I'm out with my family who do wear hijab, the number of racist/Islamophobic incidents really go up. My heart hurts for my nieces, they're such lovely girls and they don't deserve the treatment they get.

I'd say every other time we experience some sort of incident. And we're in the London suburbs!

I'm sad to see people telling you not to make a big deal out of it. We need people to speak up and tell their family members (no matter how old) and friends that these comments are not ok.

Why is it someone in any debate has to go all black and white? Who on earth is advocating monolithic clothing or cultural norms? Rather like the free speech advocates (I include myself) there is always the point at which it is challenged i.e. inciting hate, or whatever. In a free living society that is especially free in expression there is a challenge when it comes up against a culture of intolerance or inequality marked by highly restrictive or prescriptive clothing. I wouldn't want to legislate against the freedom of Muslim women to veil, but I don't condone it and I wish they would rip it off like the brave Iranian women.

Further, the veil is a visible marker of that division. I'm even less clued up about orthodox Jews - does their culture and values come into such stark conflict with Western values? If they do we don't hear about it or crucially SEE it in quite the same way as the veil.

I don't think we should all dress the same or look the same. God forbid, I'm a non conformer 😅. When it comes to the level of integration (how to define that is another topic), then clothing within the norms would be one factor to consider. The norms of this country are thankfully wide but not limitless. Is that Islamophobic ?

Erm, survive what “nonsense”? I’m not sure what you’re talking about. You are being massively disrespectful of my heritage though by calling it restrictive and oppressive. Would you talk about other people’s heritage in the same way? If not, why not? Is it because you know just how offensive that would be?

It's the UK's heritage, you numpty. Shared by all of Europe, some of the Near East & North Africa, and exported across the Americas & to Australia.

If you want to take personal ownership of it, though, you're welcome to it. Keep it!

When it comes to the level of integration (how to define that is another topic), then clothing within the norms would be one factor to consider. The norms of this country are thankfully wide but not limitless. Is that Islamophobic ?

If you are not happy to include in this 'norm' a hijab, which has been in evidence in the UK for really quite some time, then one can't help but think Islamophobia might be a possible motivation, yes.

While I'm back here, @BurnToastAgain, I am opposed to and 'disrespect' all religions that impose control over their adherents' dress codes and behaviours.

I respect other people's right to their beliefs in the supernatural, though I expect them to be able to discuss them fairly impartially. I don't have any such beliefs. I don't respect any attempt to impose their beliefs on others.

Christian religion forms the basis of our ethics and morality. You'd be surprised how many people would judge you on your sex life though you will no longer get arrested for it thank goodness. I know a lovely woman with four children 'each fathered by a different man' a shared friend whispered snootily in my ear. That very utterance is informed by the bedrock of our society, which itself is informed by Christian religion.

This doesn't mean we live and die by the culture or the Christian religion of course. Same sex relations are no longer illegal etc. It can change. UK society is significantly less racist than the 60s. Usually when a new wave of immigration cones there is a period of unease, adjustment, learning and hopefully integration. It's hard especially for the older generation.

Once you start name calling it’s a sure sign that someone is out of their depth intellectually. If you are unable to debate, no worries although now I’m left wondering who can claim a European heritage if it’s not Europeans?

Consistently posting in bad faith isn't a religion.

Yes, @BlooDeBloop, past beliefs leave residues. Not least the whole patriarchy, which goes back way further than monotheism (misogynistic bells & whistles added incrementally by patriarchs claiming supernatural privilege).

Societies have morals & ethics without religion. It's part of the definition of a society.

I agree about attitudes changing slowly as society changes. All changes are initiated by rebels; some follow on much later.