"Its like downtown Kabul round here"

[PyongyangKipperbang]

This has been bugging me all day.

Took my father (72) to a hospital appointment today as my mother was suffering with a migraine.

As we drove from our village through town he made this comment. It was school run time and we had just driven past two women who were wearing traditional muslim attire , wearing full matching outfits, one in black and one in the most stunning purple. Forgive me for not using the correct names but I would rather not try than get them wrong. There were a fair few families dressed similarly, but more that were in jeans and trainers!

Our small town is very very multicultural. My ex husband is Jamaican by heritage, British by birth as ex MIL and late FIL were both part of the Windrush generation. There is a large Asian community and now a lot of Eastern Europeans too.

Me - What?! They follow a different religion and dress that way, so what? And at least their dd's get to go to school.

Him - Oh well if youa re going to be like that about it

Me - Yes I am. In Kabul W X Y Z (my dd's, his GD's) wouldnt be allowed to go to school and would be forced to wear certain clothes, unlike here where we just let people be.

Then he said "well thats what I think and I can say it if I think it" and I said "Not in my car you cant. and if you think that they should all go back to where they came from, that includes Z (youngest DD, mixed race)"

Silence for a second and then "Thank you for the lift, I will get out at the lights and walk the rest of the way" I said to stop being childish. Then a dickhead cut me up and I called him as such and father said "Oh I bet all the bad drivers are only white british....." in a mumble. I said "Well as it happens, that one was" dropped him off at the hospital and all was done.

He has been cobby with me since. He needed a couple of favours later today as he can no longer drive and Ma couldnt because of her head and it was couched very much as "Your mother needs this and I cant go" rather than, as it would normally me "would you do me a favour?"

I wasnt wrong to pull him up on this was I? He isnt "elderly", just fucking "ist" when it suits him and inclusive when it doesnt. For example, DD1's partner is autistic which is thinks is made up and attention seeking...."apart from [him]". He has always been like this but I strongly suspect I am going to get the silent treatment for a while (unless he needs something). And yes, he does read THAT paper.......

We are very close and I love him very much and he me. But when Mr Daily Hate comes out......not so much..,,,

So do you think all hijab wearers and wearers of modest forms of clothing in general are ever “oppressed” into wearing it, or is Islam different to other religions? Does Islam impose any control over its adherents? If one believed that it could, I fear, be construed by some as Islamophobia

You spoke of YOUR heritage: You are being massively disrespectful of my heritage though by calling it restrictive and oppressive. We apparently share this heritage but, unlike you, I feel no pride in our homophobic, misogynistic, oppressive past. Like I said, claim it as all yours if you enjoy being minutely controlled by some geezer in a flashy robe.

I'm not the one being intellectually challenged here. Still, you don't sound at all like a person whose approval I would seek, so please carry on enjoying your miserable beliefs.

Wow! You are judging me for my religious beliefs? Who else do you judge based on their faith? If one judges Muslims this way one is Islamophobic and that is racism writ large 😧

Fetish clothes also have a long history in this country but are also not part of the clothing norm.

I hope you see I'm trying to make a debating point rather than being disrespectful.

Just because some person wears some item of clothing doesn't make it a norm. Niqabs and burkas are not part of the British clothing norms. Outside of parts of London, the North, and large urban areas headscarves are not part of the norm either. People are free to wear them however. But please don't be surprised if they raise eyebrows or reactions such as the OP's father.

You don’t actually know my religious beliefs do you? Would you treat me this way if I were Muslim? If not, why not?

What non existent point? I am a woman of faith and I feel attacked by your constant broadsides. Why are you persecuting me because of my religion and my heritage?

Of couse there are long roots to all our cultures and societies. But there is inevitably a long shadow cast on our society by Christianity. Not all bad either. Help thy neighbour is the basis of our social welfare system. Forgiveness (argued by the Victorians to forgive debtors for example to clear the prisons). Justice - innocent until proven guilty. Marriage, fidelity and valuing life. None of these are Christian per se. They are our shared cultural values. Not everyone lives up to them of course but I bet you go to a very different country and you'll be surprised how the values come forth. I knew a Moroccan family. Lovely people. Their little boy gave my child his lunch and then took her ball home with him 😁. Parents unphased as this is part of their culture. It serves as a minor example of different cultural attitudes to property. In a school situation the boy may have been told off.

The other races of people who have come here......do they also allow other race and religions and moral values room?

Poland for example, won't allow black people in, nor homosexuals.
Nothing to be proud of.

To me the blatent sexism present in some Islamic countries is so bad it is hard to tolerate, so why should we?
Women are equal. no debate.

It is simply facetious to try to make an equivalence between veils/headscarves as worn by a Muslim woman on the street and fetish clothes, although I have to applaud your trying.
What your comment about burkas actually means is 'Niqabs and burkas are not part of the clothing norms of white non-religious British people.'I'm not surprised when people raise an eyebrow or make shitty comments like the OP's father did. I'm saddened and angered.

Definitely. The world is more global and multicultural than ever. That's challenging for many older people to adjust to.

went for a shower.... came back to mayhem... that was fast.

I am going back to my emotional support cookies 🍪

I just ate a whole packet 😳 Any excuse!

@GarlicGrace oh dear, now you've done it. I will stand back while the vigilantes of mumsnet take you out for eating store bought cookies full of UPFs... 😂

I don't think cookies will cut it today tbh, I am thinking of making a dark chocolate cake just for me

Of course Christian principles form the bedrock of our modern society. It's why Christmas is a massive deal and it's why the vast majority value monogamy.

I don't think his age is an excuse.
My parents are in their 80's. They were the generation of the Beatles & peace & love. Your Dad's even younger! He should know better. Good for you op. Try to explain your feelings calmly if you can 💚

Old people seem to always get a pass when it comes to hatred towards others, of any kind, for whatever reason. It's always "They came from a different time". But they've been alive watching progress happening same as everyone else. They chose to cling to hateful ideologies. I think old fascists should be held to the same standard as anyone else. This is why hate won't die- we let it continue.

Actually it’s not an unfair comparison.

Its very disingenuous to make out that it’s just clothes. Who can actually wear a niqabs or burkas? Literally only a woman of that faith. Not a trans woman , not a woman who just decides to make a fashion statement. So it’s absolutely clothing designed for a specific group.

Like how people on MN judge the elderly? There are plenty of young racists, I know as my husband is black and we see and hear them when we go out but I wouldn't be so prejudiced as to assume that is all young people.

What??

You accuse old people of racism I'm accusing you of ageism. So maybe look at your own hateful ideologies.

I didn't say anything that suggests I think a niqab would be worn by a trans woman or a woman of another or no faith I specifically mentioned 'non-religious' people as being one of the groups who would not/do not wear them.

My point about the fetish clothes comparison being meaningless is that, unlike niqab etc, they are specifically and explicitly erotic/sexual/adult, and are worn not in public but in private contexts, among fully consenting adults except at recent Pride marches but that's another thread

I have a Muslim friend who spits nails at the women she sees wearing burkhas. Would you have tried to educate her too?