To ask why so many children are feral these days?

[ChocBanana]

I have two DC, one (13) with ASD and hypersensitivity, so she wears ear defenders and ear plugs in noisy environments.
However, today, we have had to leave a museum because of the behaviour of other kids.
I know it’s the last week of the holidays but we tend to prefer quieter places, or quieter times of day. We tend to go to museums and parks, woodlands or if we are going somewhere busier generally we go in the afternoon.

We went to a museum today near us, not a particularly big one. After about ten minutes, a mum came in with three kids and basically said “Off you go” and let them run riot. They were climbing on the exhibits, trying to pull things off the wall, picking up the listening device things and swinging them against the wall and one of them scribbled all over an information panel.
A member of staff asked them to be careful. The mum titled and says “Come on kids, we’re obviously not welcome.” Then on the way out one of them kicked a wall, leaving a scuff mark. As they left, another family came in, the was a display thing where you can pretend to dig for fossils, the two kids were throwing the sand at each other, then a third family came in, one of them, a teenager sat next to where my teenager was trying to regulate herself. She stood up and he instantly out his feet up on her bag then kicked it to the floor and put his feet up on the sofa.
The mum was chatting away to her partner, the youngest child was hiding under a shelf, then started pulling out all the display drawers at once and slamming them shut.

We had to leave at this point, my daughter was in tears.

Now, I said, I get that it’s the last week of the summer holidays. I get that many people are desperate for free things to do, and I know many children have various reasons for acting in various ways. I’m not asking for special treatment or being naive, but SERIOUSLY, AIBU to expect a certain level of behaviour in a museum?
If I am BU, any suggestions on where the hell I am supposed to take a 13 year old who struggles with people at the best of times?

No, it's not a good thing. Children need to be able to learn to amuse themselves, and to be able to find something to do during the times they are bored, they can't expect to be constantly entertained.

Totally agree. I think that's partly why it's harder to keep kids focussed and engaged at school too. They expect everything to be entertaining, almost gamified, and to get extrinsic rewards all the time. It's not their fault. It's partly due to spoiling and over-scheduling by parents and partly due to being used to constant little dopamine hits from devices, especially social media and gaming.

Yes. I struggle with this and I'm an adult!

Totally agree. I think that's partly why it's harder to keep kids focussed and engaged at school too. They expect everything to be entertaining, almost gamified, and to get extrinsic rewards all the time. It's not their fault. It's partly due to spoiling and over-scheduling by parents and partly due to being used to constant little dopamine hits from devices, especially social media and gaming.

Part of the reason I had to step in with maths was because their primary school tried constantly to do fun games to teach maths.

So idea then mess around setting up group fun bit - and by then my kids had forgotten the maths idea and struggled with the group social bit.

As I was dealing with reading and spelling with multiple kids I had to turn to on-line maths help which is often gamified so they the do the practise - one we found massively helped them but it was video 20 questions then game formats - they probably were getting dopamine hits but they also got the practise in.

It often felt like I was doing the basics and ensuring practise and the school was focused on making it all fun.

This is also a very valid point.
Working as a TA I spent a lot of time in meetings in schools with Behaviour Support. Even they were at a loss to recommend coping strategies for many children and often the only advice they could suggest was to say to the child, “I see you’re struggling. What would you like to do about it?”

I wanted to scream myself and say that these children didn’t want ‘choices’ they wanted structure and consistency. They wanted to know where they were on the ladder and to know that the adults around them could be relied upon to be firm but fair. Choices are only appropriate if the alternatives are made very clear, otherwise they’re too nebulous.

I felt that a lot of these strategies were fads and that the children were just part of some kind of social experiment which was a huge disservice and ultimately, quite destructive to them. Too many middle class parents have got suckered into this experiment by believing their child is a special case and deserves exceptional treatment rather than recognising much of the challenging behaviour is a result of their policies rather than an inherent fault in their child or the school.

My DH volunteers at a museum and actually had the opposite of this. He said that the school holidays have been a nightmare this year with kids running and screaming and climbing on exhibits with seemingly little in the way of control by parents.

He came home last week and told me about a lovely family they had had in. He said it was mum, dad and three children he thought would be under 10. He noticed that the parents talked to their children about different exhibits and when they got to where he was on duty the children asked sensible questions prefixed by, excuse me, but why/what, or sorry I don't quite understand could you please tell me again? He said it was quite refreshing after having to ask parents to remove their offspring from exhibits and being talked over by kids. The favourite was, well they want to look inside. There were plenty of things to look inside of but you would have thought that they would realise that the exhibits that were roped off were not for climbing on.

Anyway, when he later went for his break several of the volunteers mentioned this lovely little family and what a joy it was to see. So people do notice.

Too many parents who think 'parenting' means giving kids an iPad or phone to shut them up and don't bother disciplining or instilling manners. Was at a family festival recently and really noticed this - entitled lazy parents who don't give a sh*t how much their feral children are annoying everyone else.

Aren't children with ADHD also just energetic hyperactive little boys (or girls) too?

6 is too young to diagnose ADHD so I'm not suggesting your son has it - but I have ADHD and so does my daughter, and my 2 nephews.

I just want to challenge what I pick up from your post as possibly being a little bit ableist? My DNs are like little puppies - need to be active and kept engaged - constant vigilance to remind them of appropriate behaviour.

They're not bad kids. It makes them more energetic than most, more impulsive than most, have selective hearing and benefit from consistency. I dont know what you think ADHD is?

(My DD and I both have inattentive type of ADHD)

Wow.

Children are sponges. Give them time, attention, clear boundaries and expose them to social settings from a very young age, and they'll behave beautifully with few exceptions when they are toddlers. Even they are toddlers, leaving a shop when they are in full meltdown mode screaming blue murder, gives them a clear boundary - they can't get what they want by behaving badly..\

Children are not feral, there is bad parenting.

Yes, I found this very difficult as well as a parent of a child with SEN. I wanted the school to offer suggestions and solutions and ideas that I could then reinforce at home. But they kept putting it back to me, "what do you think he needs?". I don't know. If I knew, I wouldn't be tearing my hair out because he's behind in everything. And he doesn't know either because he's only 8.

Quite often I knew what he didn't need - but I'm not a professional and I needed them to tell me what was possible.

With SIL - I think they're also so busy pussy footing around that I'm not sure she's getting the message about how difficult her DC is. So she tells us about x or y issue at school and sanctions or things put in place but seems to gloss over it as she hasn't clocked it's an issue - says things like, "it's to help him make better choices" or whatever. There's never anything about what she should be doing or DC should be doing to support these "better choices". Drives me mad.

I would have thought this too if I had only had my first and third child. I would be very smug and assume it was all down to parenting but the truth is a lot of this comes down to the child’s nature as well.

I am not saying it’s an excuse for poor behaviour but it is important to acknowledge that some children for many reasons are much more resistant than you have painted here. Good behaviour is not a problem at all for 2 of my 3 children but my middle son is wired in a completely different way; it was noticeable literally from the day he was born.

And he is still not a “bad” child he just has different needs, and some needs are harder to figure out than others. Triggers need to be identified and young children cannot yet adequately communicate even to themselves what their issues are. Anxiety in children often presents as anger or naughtiness. Labelling every negative behaviour a child presents as needing chastisement or punishment as a solution does not help them develop the coping skills needed to learn to self regulate and feel better. Yet in the UK there is a pressure to treat children with an overly firm hand especially in public, or else be labelled as a pathetic parent with a nightmare child, as evidenced on this thread!

I've been in Australia 10 years now, and I still can't get used to kids screaming and yelling in a grocery shop. I'm pretty laid back and try to understand it, but I really don't. Last year I went back to Spain, Madrid, and it was so incredibly obvious the difference. No yelling, no screaming kids, no matter how young they were in the shops.

Maybe it's parenting, maybe it's culture. In Spain, kids from very young age are exposed to socialise with the community with their parents, and they get told off by a barman, shopkeeper, teller, friends or family, if they are misbehaving in public.

Probably the adage of "raising a kid by a village" or country norms, have a lot to do with it.

I volunteer in a charity shop twice a week and children get bought in here and told to play with the toys whilst Mum looks around.
Mostly fine but some children think they can open boxes, pull out the contents and shoot cars etc all over the floor. We had one lady step on a car and fall into a stand, hurting her arm. When you try and stop them and explain it’s a shop not a playground the responses are unbelievable, often SEN issues are mentioned, but all children need to be taught to respect others or supervised closely if they can’t.
Everyone is part of society and nowadays few are taught to consider others unfortunately.

Sorry to hear of your experience. We like museums and have honestly never experienced anything like you describe. Perhaps we’re just lucky we haven’t been there at the ‘wrong’ time. For the most part, we’ve only seen well behaved kids just enjoying themselves.

I know, right, "gentle parenting", that means not parenting, and is an excuse for inept parenting, never heard so much bulls**t, society has gone mad, as can be seen by behaviour in schools and in public.

And he is still not a “bad” child he just has different needs, and some needs are harder to figure out than others. Triggers need to be identified and young children cannot yet adequately communicate even to themselves what their issues are. Anxiety in children often presents as anger or naughtiness. Labelling every negative behaviour a child presents as needing chastisement or punishment as a solution does not help them develop the coping skills needed to learn to self regulate and feel better. Yet in the UK there is a pressure to treat children with an overly firm hand especially in public, or else be labelled as a pathetic parent with a nightmare child, as evidenced on this thread!

I do sympathise but I think the point is that if your child cannot cope in certain environments, it's actually on you as the parent to keep them out of those environments. It's better for you, better for the child and better for the people around you. DS could not cope in restaurants or coffee shops for more than a short period. We accepted that and didn't go to those places or only went in situations where we could take him out quickly as needed. Slowly, he built up his tolerance and ability to manage. Even now, as a pre-teen, given the choice, he'll choose places that are less busy, less manic and less overwhelming for him.

Yes, I found this very difficult as well as a parent of a child with SEN. I wanted the school to offer suggestions and solutions and ideas that I could then reinforce at home. But they kept putting it back to me, "what do you think he needs?". I don't know. If I knew, I wouldn't be tearing my hair out because he's behind in everything. And he doesn't know either because he's only 8.

Quite often I knew what he didn't need - but I'm not a professional and I needed them to tell me what was possible.

I found this as well - we'd often be told they weren't behind and then suddenly be told they were - ie what we'd been saying - and then we'd ask how do we help with this and get blank looks.

I can only think of one teacher who offered a suggestion over three kids and other times the school would put them in some additional support which often wasn't appropriate because it was what they had. The primary boards here were much more helpful.

Some kids are special with different needs, I agree completely with you. But this is not the majority of kids screening and yelling. My nephew in Spain is severely disabled with extreme behaviours. His parents have exposed him to social life since he was a baby and he's doing great at 26. The exposure was in degrees - when he triggered, his parents left bit by bit at a time. He also had essential feedback like "we love you but you can't do that" from his trusted barman at the local bar or bakery. He still can have a meltdown but it rarely happens now and he's travelled all over the world.

These are exceptional kids, but the majority are not exceptional. Something is not right when neurotypical kids keep yelling and screaming in public when they shouldn't.

Very true and to be fair this is what I do and actually DS on his own is a wonderful travel companion, but other people have different situations where they may not be able to avoid built up places. I’m just relating my experience to the OP and all the opinions flying in.

I do wonder though, how we expect children to build up this tolerance of being in quiet communal places and not just child centric places if as a society we are so hostile to kids acting up. I would leave a place if my kids were being disruptive but obviously it would need to have got to that point first, which people would then witness!

I do wonder though, how we expect children to build up this tolerance of being in quiet communal places and not just child centric places if as a society we are so hostile to kids acting up. I would leave a place if my kids were being disruptive but obviously it would need to have got to that point first, which people would then witness!

In my experience, a child who starts to get disruptive is not, as a rule, blamed. it's when that child's behaviour is ignored by the parents that people get upset. We've all see that screaming toddler being carried out of a restaurant and usually people are sympathetic to both the child and the parents. I was having lunch with a friend a few weeks ago and a woman with a baby, a toddler and an older child came in. The older child started behaving badly - but she was clearly doing her best and then when he wouldn't calm down she packed up and left. The child was extremely annoying but I didn't blame her or him - they were all just trying their best.

Kids used to be able to play in the street - we took those away and gave them to cars. They used to have school playing fields - we sold those off. They used to have freedom to roam their neighbourhoods on bikes - again, we gave them to cars and paranoia about stranger danger.

And we're surprised they act up?

I've done the same, and not only with toddlers. I can't tell you the amount of times I left a supermarket because one of my kids wanted a sweet I refused to take, and were becoming disruptive.

No one in a supermarket needs to be on the screaming end from kids wanting to impose their own will on their parents. It's up their parents to make clear boundaries from the get go, "you are not getting what you want by screaming and we are leaving right now". That was my policy anyway.

It only takes a few times for children to understand they can't get what they want by misbehaving. They are sponges and learn fast.

as a society we are so hostile to kids acting up.

I think this is a key phrase actually.

We are hostile to kids. I mean how many people would start a thread about feral adults with special needs? Or elderly people with dementia if they were shouting and touching things they shouldn't? But we expect more from little kids who also don't have the cognitive abilities of able bodied adults. Why?
And no my kids arent badly behaved and they're older anyway but I really hate all the snide remarks made about young kids and their parents. Kids are mostly pretty well behaved in my experience and some kids have always played up, whether that's now or 20 or 30 years ago.

What splishsplash said.

Before anyone lays into I'm not calling adults with special needs "feral" just using the same terminology as the OP used about children.