To ask why so many children are feral these days?

[ChocBanana]

I have two DC, one (13) with ASD and hypersensitivity, so she wears ear defenders and ear plugs in noisy environments.
However, today, we have had to leave a museum because of the behaviour of other kids.
I know it’s the last week of the holidays but we tend to prefer quieter places, or quieter times of day. We tend to go to museums and parks, woodlands or if we are going somewhere busier generally we go in the afternoon.

We went to a museum today near us, not a particularly big one. After about ten minutes, a mum came in with three kids and basically said “Off you go” and let them run riot. They were climbing on the exhibits, trying to pull things off the wall, picking up the listening device things and swinging them against the wall and one of them scribbled all over an information panel.
A member of staff asked them to be careful. The mum titled and says “Come on kids, we’re obviously not welcome.” Then on the way out one of them kicked a wall, leaving a scuff mark. As they left, another family came in, the was a display thing where you can pretend to dig for fossils, the two kids were throwing the sand at each other, then a third family came in, one of them, a teenager sat next to where my teenager was trying to regulate herself. She stood up and he instantly out his feet up on her bag then kicked it to the floor and put his feet up on the sofa.
The mum was chatting away to her partner, the youngest child was hiding under a shelf, then started pulling out all the display drawers at once and slamming them shut.

We had to leave at this point, my daughter was in tears.

Now, I said, I get that it’s the last week of the summer holidays. I get that many people are desperate for free things to do, and I know many children have various reasons for acting in various ways. I’m not asking for special treatment or being naive, but SERIOUSLY, AIBU to expect a certain level of behaviour in a museum?
If I am BU, any suggestions on where the hell I am supposed to take a 13 year old who struggles with people at the best of times?

Freedom of religion, faith, sexuality, access to birth control and abortion, protections for minorities, freedom to protest, full ballot box democracy, free press, social media unrestricted, freedom to leave the country to travel, women allowed to work, Government openly criticised by media including state broadcaster...

Girl you need to learn what facism means. And check your privilege, because there are people out there who do live and have lived under fascistic governments, and you make light of their suffering by saying silly things like this.

For various reasons, I think lots of parents have spent relatively small sustained amounts of time with their children....just short bursts for a week or two. They haven't had the opportunity to develop the skills and confidence to parent effectively. This turns into a viscious circle as the parenting feels harder and harder as they just don't know what to do with their children. If that time is also spent primarily with an eye on the screen, a really unhelpful dynamic takes hold. I am.a teacher so have long holidays with my children. I've had quite a few parents of my youngest asking in all seriousness what I donwith them all day! It has been quite a hard summer for me this year as my oldest is a bit of a grumpy teen but generally I have kept busy with walks, baking, crafts, lunch out etc. Some of my peers only know how to do the big day out to a theme park or water park but struggle with quieter times with low key activities. I think it's these sorts of days where the behavioural traits are build and expectations laid out and followed up. As time goes by, this becomes quite difficult to achieve with theboreasures on families named there are fewer and fewer examples of this and a new norm develops. Obviously this is a massive generalisation and there are other things at play, but overall the pressures on families have made some things that were once taken for granted (time with your children) a luxury for the few.

@itsgettingweird do you mind sharing the name of the documentary?

Gentle/therapeutic parenting misunderstood by people looking to justify zero parenting.

DDs are by no means angels, but we certainly wouldn’t be allowing them to run riot in a museum. I know the youngest (2yo) is too young to behave appropriately there, so we’d take them somewhere they can run around instead.

I’ve led plenty of school trips to museums, and there is no reason why NT children even as young as 6 can’t be sensible in that environment, with boundaries and supervision.

The screaming!

4 kids, about 10 years old were stood in front of my house screaming their heads off. When I went out to ask if they were ok and what they were doing they told me they were having a screaming competition

when I asked why they weren't doing this outside their own houses (I didn’t recognise any of them as neighbours) I was told they were told by one of their mums to go and do it somewhere else!

These kids know they are untouchable. They can round them up and take them home to their parents then rinse and repeat. Useless youth referral orders or whatever they are now called.
Basically a free pass to do whatever they want. Take your rose tinted specs off

I think it's a bit dramatic to suggest that primary school age children "know they're untouchable". They're kids. You sound like you support the idea of corporal punishment.

It's true though. Quite a large proportion of children simply do not care about the very limited sanctions that are applicable to them, by their parents, by school or by society in general. Adults are reluctant to really impose authority or boundaries for fear of being accused of being too harsh. Teachers can be disciplined for merely shouting at a student. Children know exactly what to say in order to make it sound as though a perfectly justified telling-off 'makes them feel unsafe'.

Corporal punishment is utterly abhorrent (and wouldn't work anyway). However, there currently seems to be nothing that does work.

Plus children expect and demand instant gratification. Many parents aren’t teaching patience or about taking turns. It’s all about getting to the front first and my child’s needs are paramount.

My daughter, who is a teacher, believes that children actually need to be taught by adults that it’s ok to be bored and to learn how to entertain themselves rather than demanding and being supplied with constant adult validation. I think there is something in this; not so long ago you used to see children in restaurants or public places happily colouring in or drawing calmly. Whenever mine were little, I always had some crayons and paper in my bag for occasions like this, plus colouring is surprisingly calming and focusing.

Currently, everything seems to competitive. Gaming, attention and entitlement.

Is it the after effect of the pandemic?

We’ve rented a cottage in a sleepy and remote coastal village for years over August BH. One attraction was that second home owners who owned adjacent properties stayed in their own properties over that weekend. So you knew what you were going to get - the same people every year, and they respected the fact that the village was very quiet after about 10pm.

Since the pandemic both the adults and children of the second homers have behaved noticeably worse. This year was the worst of all - teenagers playing music on iPhones on the street at 1.30am, drunken shouting from both parents and children, singing happy birthday in the garden (also both well after midnight). I am amazed because they had previously seemed to respect that this wasn’t Magaluf and that the permanent residents weren’t on holiday and had to get up for work the next day. They always had friends staying, BBQs etc, but they’d invariably managed to do so without disturbing anyone else - they went inside at 10.30 and carried on or ended the party or whatever.

It’s like somebody flicked a switch. Is it the survival instinct of the pandemic when you looked after your own and forget the rest? Lack of socialisation over several years? I don’t know.

It's definitely parenting. I know two children from different families with very "energetic" children whose behaviour can be less than stellar. One has been diagnosed with ADHD and ASD. But the difference is the parents. One set of parents are on top of it all the time - keep an eye on their child, constantly remind them of appropriate behaviour, set boundaries etc. The other set appear to be completely oblivious and veer between indulgent, "oh look, it's so cute when he goes up to random people in pubs and wants to sit with them and chat" and screaming at him. The poor kid has zero idea of appropriate behaviour because it's never been taught to him.

I also agree that parents are too quick to defend their children. My children are not always perfectly behaved but I don't think I've ever had random people come up to complain to me about DS' behaviour. The child above's parents have got into altercations with other parents on a regular basis but they don't seem to realise this is unusual.

Oh, and the other thing I've noticed is that I think too often parents are doing things that aren't age appropriate. the PP who mentioned that her child is very energetic and struggles in museums but she still wants him to go to them is a good example - at 6, if your child isn't ready for museums, it's okay because there are plenty of years left for them to engage with them.

It's like people who say, "well, when I was younger, I used to sit at the table in a restaurant with my colouring in pencils" forgetting that if you remember it you were probably at least 6 and probably older. It's almost like the accessibility of all these things has made people forget that they aren't necessarily FOR everyone.

I remember how excited my brother and I were when we were about 11 or 12 and we started being allowed to go to restaurants with my parents that were not specifically for children. Before that, if they went out, they went without us and we were at home with a babysitter. Similarly, I lived in a small city so we didn't have a lot of museums etc, and it was definitely a thing to go with school in primary at some point but then with parents or even by ourselves in high school. Not when I was 6.

Dont have time to read through the whole thread but I've seen very few acknowledgements of how shit lockdowns were on children, their behaviour, the resilience of their parents etc.

No, it's not a good thing. Children need to be able to learn to amuse themselves, and to be able to find something to do during the times they are bored, they can't expect to be constantly entertained. It's also not good for the parents to be rushing around from activity to activity, along with working - when do they get any down time?

I feel like I'm by far the strictest parent of all of my friends. It does seem like the fashionable middle class parenting style is to let the kids get away with murder.

There are a lot of people on this thread who don't understand what gentle parenting is. You absolutely have boundaries, consequences, tell your child no, and teach them right from wrong. You just do it in a way you'd like to be spoken to yourself, and take time to explain things to kids rather than just going "well life isn't fair!!", "TOUGH!!", or "because I said so!!", and acknowledge your child's feelings whilst holding your own boundaries. I gentle parent and we absolutely have boundaries and consequences. We often get stopped on days out and told how refreshing it is to see a well behaved child and also a mum who doesn't shout at them every five seconds. This isn't a brag, it's just the truth. Meanwhile, I have friends who think that they gentle parent, and I can't stand spending time around their children because they completely lack boundaries, social skills, and act like brats. They are parented in a permissive way and it is misunderstood for gentle parenting.

Chavs raise chavs

It isn't always chavs, either. I have 3 nephews on DB side, and we avoid going to places like cafes for lunch with them because they'll be crawling under tables, banging the salt pots on the table, shouting. Sometimes the parents end up shouting at them, kids have a shouting match with them, it's downright embarrassing. If the parents don't say anything, it's because "boys will be boys" aka "I'm going to use my child having a penis as an excuse for shit behaviour that I'd never tolerate from a girl".

Dont have time to read through the whole thread but I've seen very few acknowledgements of how shit lockdowns were on children, their behaviour, the resilience of their parents etc.

I do agree with this but I also hear people using lockdown as an excuse not to support their children with their development or behaviour, several years on. I met a 4 year old the other day who is still in nappies through the day and can't speak, and was told it is because she was a lockdown baby (she was born in 2019 I think, from our conversation), so they didn't go in to public toilets when she was a baby and everyone was wearing masks so she didn't see people's mouths moving.

Pretty sure you went to the toilet during 2020, and that nobody wore masks at home? The child clearly needs assessing and help with their development, but it's easier to blame lockdown.

The thing is obviously the kids you mentioned were behaving terribly but what you probably didn't notice was the 50 or so other families who were behaving themselves. People just don't notice good behaviour, then they see a couple of kids who are being awful and then you get all the "kids today are terrible" chat.

You are lucky then.

My next door neighbour thankfully moved earlier this year. Her daughter is 10 and we had had 5 years of screeching, screaming and shrieking. In the summer holidays she would be in the garden from quite early morning till about 8pm and the noise drove me mad. She would often have friends there and, they too, would screech and scream.

Next door but one have their grandchildren regularly. The girl, aged 8, also screams and screeches so much of the time.

Two boys opposite scream a lot. One day I honestly thought something terrible had happened and started to go across to see but then the boy stopped and started laughing.

Almost every time we go to a supermarket or cafe there seems to be a child screaming for no reason.

Me and my siblings would not have been allowed to scream and screech and neither would my siblings' children.

Totally right.

All this ‘structured’ entertainment has its place and its benefits. However, children also have to learn to play and use their imaginations without being directed constantly by an adult. It’s part of learning to operate within a social group and about give, take and awareness of others. And that through that play, they learn about how their behaviour impacts others from their peers. A lot of this ‘rampaging’ is almost insular. I’ve noticed that even if it sometimes appears to be a group thing, it’s actually quite an egocentric thing - which children naturally are, until they learn about the needs of others.

I think people do notice the well behaved ones.

My children certainly weren’t saints and I had on more than one occasion remove them from situations because their behaviour wasn’t acceptable to and potentially about to impact others - consequently, they quickly learnt that they would be the ones missing out if they misbehaved.

But I also had many compliments from people about their manners and their ability to fit in well with others. This did come with a lot of hard work and emotional pain. I can clearly recall sitting in my car or at home sobbing to myself because I felt I didn’t have a grip and wasn’t handling them well but I made sure they never saw that.

i think what is missing out in a lot of families is consistency. There’s constantly a mixed message about expectations. So many parents blow hot and cold. They threaten all sorts of sanctions but don’t follow through and give in because they don’t want to be seen as the mean one. Children learn very quickly what an adult’s tolerance, boundaries and limits are. If there appear to be none, it becomes open season.

I do think there need to be more free/low cost indoor places for kids to let off steam.

However, that behaviour was unacceptable and there is no excuse really. I have had the times when my kids have behaved badly in museums/cafes/libraries (one is ADHD/ASD and can be very hyperactive and silly). I have never allowed it and when it was clear they couldn't behave in the right way I marched them straight out.

I have learnt not to take them to places where they can't behave appropriately either due to age/personality/SEN. There was a (long!) time when I only ever took them to parks/fields/soft play areas - they enjoy those places more anyway!

I agree with this entirely.

i think what is missing out in a lot of families is consistency. There’s constantly a mixed message about expectations. So many parents blow hot and cold. They threaten all sorts of sanctions but don’t follow through and give in because they don’t want to be seen as the mean one. Children learn very quickly what an adult’s tolerance, boundaries and limits are. If there appear to be none, it becomes open season.

Yes. Also, if the messages are mixed, I think when the children are younger, they genuinely don't know what's okay and what's not okay. Because one day they'll get to do something and the next they get shouted at. So they just figure they'll give it a go.

My GC were appalling on Tuesday. They were great all day in soft play, then we went into the shops and the bickering was off the scale. It sounds even worse because the eldest has verbal ticks (ADHD diagnosed) and the youngest has had grommets and can't wear her hearing aids, so has to be spoken to, loudly in certain buildings. They are sick of each other and could have done with going back this week. They are perfect in school. The eldest did say to my sister "it's great in school we aren't even in the same play yard" 😆

Highly visible subset of permissive/gentle parenting - usually very middle class.

Exhausted parents both working long commutes money worries little energy or time to parent well - and often trips out huge expectations to avoid arguments and enjoy/make memories.

Covid - it's not just kids who seem unable to behave in public places.

Undermining parents - worst kids I knew parents were constantly undermining each other also a trend that seems to go along with DGP demand to have very young babies alone - DGP undermining parents.

My kids DGP would try and undermine kids being corrected as I wasn't depending on them for childcare I could stop that - it was much harder for DSis dependent on family for childcare - it can - not always - I think blur who in charge and how indulgent extended family can be. IL family friend are an extreme example basically with the daughter husbands help basically pushing her out entirely IL used to think it great now think it's a car crash.

Less outside time/exercising - my kids had to walk we stop of in parks get buses and trains - so they had less energy than kids pick up from in front of screen put in car and then expected to behave or be quiet.

@Viralsunflower it might actually be the professionals around the child who are fobbing the mother off with that. Continence services are very poor and little is done before the age of seven. Again speech services in this country are a disgrace. My youngest GC has suffered irreversible hearing loss because of lock down. Other children won't get their speech back. The back logs are still being cleared, children who are borderline and not in school are bottom of the list.