…to want things formalised in DM’s will, or am I being grabby?

[GoodWillDrafting]

We’re a small, close family and we all get on very well, so the last thing I want is to create bad feeling. But…

My DM, a widow, has helped my DSis out financially a fair bit, whereas I’ve never wanted or needed any help since I stopped being a student over three decades ago.

The most recent bail-out involved a pretty hefty sum, which my DSis suggested be deducted from the amount she inherits from our mum’s estate, whenever that might be.
I have no problem with this, but I do want it to be formalised somehow, as I know how easily these things get forgotten/the details blur, and my mum won’t be around to make sure it happens.

I’ve also suggested that the previous lump sum my mum “lent” my DSis should be included (from earlier this year).

My own circumstances are that I’m fine for money now, but have a disabled child who’s likely to need more, rather than less care as she gets older, and I can see myself being unable to work at some point.

I mentioned the issue (again) to my mum yesterday, and she looked a bit panicky and said she didn’t want to upset my DSis or let her know we’d been talking about her finances.

My attitude is that all this stuff should be out in the open as it concerns us all, and if anyone’s going to be potentially pissed off, it’s me. I’d be happy for the three of us to sit down and discuss it, even though I find talking about money really awkward, especially as none of us enjoys talking about profiting from DM’s death!

Am I being unreasonable to want the money DM has lent/advanced DSis reflected in her will? Or am I being grabby?

NC for obvious reasons.

This happened in my family. One sibling borrowed a fairly small sum of money years back against a parent's house. He never repaid it so years later the debt was half the value of the house. He still took his share of what was left instead of saying he'd already "had" far more than his fair share. It basically halved what everyone else got and has caused immense hard feeling as the other siblings had very tangible need for funds. Do what you can to have this memorialised OP. We now have siblings not attending other siblings' funerals and all sorts over it. 😞

@YeahIsaidit As I said before, I’m fully on board with her spunking the lot on having fun while she still can.

What happens if your df ends up needing a care home! That flat he has left to your dsis will have to be sold to pay for his care, leaving your sister with absolutely nothing.

Then there's really no need to be fretting over who got what and when is there? "I want this formalised" is gross when it wasn't you that gave your sister the money. DM could blow the lot on a Cuban beach house, she hasn't, she gave some to your sister. It's nothing to do with you

THis is so common there is an informal term for it - its called a hotchpot clause and basically says that any gifts within x years of death need to be put into the "hotchpot" along with the estate for the purposes of calculating entitlement under the estate. Using a general clause might sound a bit less pointed towards your sister as it would apply to both of you.

One point to bear in mind if your mother has a substantial estate and dies within 7 years is that if the will isn't drafted carefully the gifts to your sister could hoover up the tax free band and mean that your inheritance bears the brunt of IHT. SO you might want to suggest a hotchpot clause that also evens the tax burden out over your and your sisters shares of the estate.

This is all quite normal for a good trusts and estates solicitor. If you think it is complicated for your mothers then suggestt she sees one who is a member of the SIciety of Trust and Estate Practitioners (STEP) - you'll be able to find a local one through their website.

DF has more than enough income to cover care home costs in the best care homes in the area without touching any capital. We have done our research. Thanks for your concern

I wouldn’t dream of asking my parents what they are doing with their money. I’d like them to spend it enjoying their last years.

I’d never heard of the hotchpot thing, @londonmummy1966. I’ll look into it - thanks.

To the people saying “I wouldn’t dream of asking what my parent is doing with their money” and ooh, it’s so gross to be thinking about this, I’M NOT THE ONE WHO BROUGHT IT UP! My DM has said she wants things to be fair when she dies - the question is whether I’m being unreasonable in asking for the fairness to be recorded somewhere!

I agree with @Lamelie and @TaigaSno ’s comments.

Forcasting shared, your sister absolutely will ask again for money. The precedent has been set - ask, get, make vague promises/remarks about repayment or it being an advance. They have worked out that both you and your mother won’t ask for follow through, and so it won’t happen.

And if you feel grabby now, do you really want to be the one pointing all this out at your mother’s funeral and will reading, when people will be sad and emotions more raw?

I would gently continue to follow up with your mother about the Will update. After a month, when you realise it won’t happen, I would approach your mother and ask for the same sum as money from her in total that she has lent your sister. Tell her you need it for your child - you do. If she pays it, put it aside for your child and call things even. If she doesn’t, then at least it may stop any future requests of your sister’s being granted, as there won’t be the argument that she needs it and you don’t.

I strongly recommend following up and getting this sorted now, whilst everyone memory of the debt is fresh, no one has memory issues, capacity issues or a need for nursing home fees immediately. As @Lamelie said, the value of £10,000 changes over time too, so even if you are promised exactly the same amount extra in the will, you are still taking a hit and losing out.

And DM’s pension income is of the sort that allows her lots of nice holidays and treats, so there’s no question of her depriving herself now.

OP you can be annoyed about this, and talk to your DM about it, but don't be surprised if nothing changes. And please don't let it eat away at you. The best way to deal with potential inheritances is to expect nothing and carry on with your life.

People are weird about wills. She may feel that she doesn't want to upset you by admitting that she doesn't want to change anything and still wants your sister to have a full share of whatever is left.

For example - my brother hasn't been in contact with our parents for 10+ years - in that time my father was diagnosed with dementia (which we informed by brother of) and me and my sister helped my mum to care for my dad before he went into a nursing home, as well as supporting our mother practically and emotionally.

We know, because she has told us clearly, that everything will be left equally between the 3 of us, meaning my brother will get a 'fair share' of everything. That's just how it is, even though he has had nothing to do with any of us for a decade. That's what my mother wants to do and it's her choice. C'est la vie.

GoodWillDrafting · Today 10:11
To the people saying “I wouldn’t dream of asking what my parent is doing with their money” and ooh, it’s so gross to be thinking about this, I’M NOT THE ONE WHO BROUGHT IT UP! My DM has said she wants things to be fair when she dies - the question is whether I’m being unreasonable in asking for the fairness to be recorded somewhere!”

If she has said she wants things to be fair, presumably she’ll put that in place without having to be asked.

Very sensible but I think you're Mam may have given far more to your sister than you know and she's worried what you will say when you find out. Or, there won't be enough left to balance it out.

Just because your DM changes her will now does not mean it is set in stone - she may well secretly change it in the future, nearer her death to what she wants or is persuaded to. It is unfair but your DM is not listening to you over your fears for the future and your disabled child because she wants to put other DD first and has persuaded herself you are fine and can cope.

Agreed. OP if your mother really wants to do something about this she will, but you need to accept that she may just be placating you.

I'm just suggesting this is her POV, not condoning it. In my nuclear family I'm the competent one and my DSis is the one with the bailouts, sometimes really large ones, and for totally insane bad-choices reasons.

Like one time she bought a long haul flight with her rent money because a guy who said he was an Arabian prince offered her a job in the film he was producing - he may have even been a real prince, I understand there are many - there was no job, he just wanted to date her - then DM had to pay for her flight back and her rent. I did complain it was unfair but I'm over it now after many such incidents.

If/when my DM gives her way more money than me in the Will, I won't lose sleep over it. In fact I've already told her she ought to, to fend off any requests directly from my DSis when the time comes.

It’s absolutely nothing to do with you. Have you considered that your mum may have no intention of deducting any of this?

DSis called
me when she and DM were discussing the possibility of the advance. I told her it was fine with me but I thought it needed to be recorded somehow. DSis sounded a bit taken aback and said something about not thinking that was necessary and she’d remember

Your DSis is trying to pull a fast one. She doesn't want any record kept of what she owes and I doubt would has any intention of forfeiting any of her half of the inheritance at a later date.
It would come down to your word against hers.

She will keep asking your DM for more.

What is your Dsis needing these large sums of money for?

Unless your mother has learning difficulties or is very financially naive and vulnerable - then I suggest you let her be a big girl OP and make her own decisions

If she wants to do this, she will off her own back

if she doesn’t, she won’t

I would be very upset if one of my kids started telling me how to arrange my will and if I want to help one child mother due to circumstances I would prefer to make my decisions about that e.g. if your mother has already forgiven the earlier "loan" that is her decision not yours.

I can't imagine trying to have any say in what my parents write in their will/what they do with their money. I haven't ever considered 'fairness' between myself and my siblings because I have never even thought about what I stand to gain after my parents' death.

Honestly just drop it. Your mum is evidently uncomfortable making these changes and it's her money, not yours

There is no such thing as an estate or a beneficiary until someone dies.

I agree with @Lamelie. Much better for your mum to gift you the same amount now if she can afford it. As well as meaning that the will can stay "fair" at 50/50, it also means you won't have to pay inheritance tax if your mum lives another 7+ years.

""The inheritance thing was my DSis’ idea, not mine."" because she wants you to think she isn't borrowing without paying back from your mum, but in relality that is exactly what she is doing. As others have said your mum is allowed to give money to who ever she wants. I think it's just annoying to say it will be taken from sisters inheritance when it wont be.

I can understand why you want to get it sorted but I don't think you will.

My great gran parents needed I think 10k in the 80s to buy a small modern house. My grandfather (they were his ILs) loaned them the money on the understanding when it came to selling the house he would get his money back the rest would be split between their children (inc his wife). Well that didn't happen and it wasn't in writing. One sister objected and the estate went between the 5 siblings equally. My gran never spoke to that sister again which was very sad.