To let my dad go home at the cost of my mum's well being?

[JustAllRoundShit]

A couple of months ago my dad (mid 80s) had a stroke. He requires full time care as he is very weak, can't get up or walk or do anything else himself. He's fully there cognitively but very apathetic in the day. Just wants to sleep all the time. When he is not sleeping he is very agitated, aggressive and very quick to anger with lots of shouting.

He is currently in a rehab home kind of thing. He seems to be slightly improving there but he absolutely hates it and wants to go home. I totally understand why. He's always been very independent and also very dominating. It must be terrible for him to be so out of control and helpless, completely at the mercy of the carers. I would hate it as well.

I think we could organise staff to look after him at home. It would take a lot of planning, lots of staff, money, etc but it's doable (we are not in the UK). The problem is it will be a massive burden on my mum. Massive responsibility, massive mental strain because he keeps yelling for her (and not very nicely) and I'm worried that she'll spend the last few years of her life (she's early 80s) being stuck by his bed, caring for him and basically just getting yelled at all the time.

I don't want that for her. She's done her bit for him her entire life (he hasn't been the best husband. Good father but very dominating, borderline abusive husband). For my mum it would be much better if he was in a home. Then she would be free. But he'd absolutely hate it. He keeps crying, begging me to let him go home. I just don't know what to do.

What would you do?

Yanbu: bring him home, while trying to set up the house so that he will trouble my mum as little as possible

Yabu: let him stay in a home and give your mum peace. She's done her bit and we can't expect her to take on this burden.

Your poor mum. Looking in on him for ‘an hour or two’ twice a day is a massive commitment. And who is to say that your father will be happy with the care that you have put in place? My dad was at home when he first fell ill, and the local authority sent people around to help him. He was a rude and occasionally verbally abusive towards them, and did not want them there. He wanted my mum to do it. My mum had looked after him for nearly 60 years: I wouldn’t say he was abusive as such, but he was very domineering. She admitted to my sister and I that she could not cope with him if he came out of hospital. It didn’t actually come to that as he died before a decision needed to be made, but we fully supported her. If you could do it – no work or childcare commitments – would you take him in? I’m not suggesting you do, I’m just saying, please don’t expect your mum to do something that you wouldn’t want to do. My mum only survived my father by around 18 months, despite the fact that she was around 14 years younger than him. I think you need to give your mum a break And tell your dad that you will not be letting her look after him.

I don't understand why you're prioritising your domineering father over your poor, put-upon mother.

She's had to suffer enough. He's just reaping the consequences of his past behaviour.

For me it's like sex, if it's not enthusiastic consent, it doesn't count.

Just because years of FOG stop your mum saying no, doesn't stop it being very clear she isn't saying YES!

A trial would just further browbeat her and be cruel to him giving false hope if you were then to come to your senses and put him back in full time care.

As a pp said can you look around for the best home?

Are you certain that the current care team are definitely thinking about home as an option? Occasionally it's already been ruled out but they haven't communicated that.

What assessment of your father's mental capacity has been done? And don't be afraid to ask for more detail about that assessment. They're not always very good.

Does your mother hold Power of Attorney for health and welfare?

Ask for a meeting about discharge destination. But do some work beforehand to talk to the therapists involved in particular and set up the team thinking about your mum's vulnerability. I cannot imagine that a man with this much disinhibition would ever be safe to be managed alone by a woman in her 80s. Which means 24 hour care. Which could theoretically be done at home with a huge care team but would be much more reliably provided in a specialist home for people with neurological conditions and challenging behaviour.

Absolutely not. No. No. Hell no. Why would you even consider it?

OP - this sounds almost identical to what happened to my ILs. FiL had a major stroke, spent a year in a rehab-type home, being vile and difficult to the nurses and carers, demanding attention etc. Then he went home, and although carers came in, the bulk of the responsibility fell to MiL, and it nearly killed her. He kept calling her name to do the most trivial things, moaning at her, moaning at the carers. he'd try to do things he wasn't capable of, because he always used to do them, eg putting logs in the wood burner, then falling out of his wheelchair because he'd reached too far. MiL wasn't strong enough to lift him, so had to call for help. Then, she tore ligaments in her leg because the dog knocked her over, and FiL just didn't care. She was supposed to rest, but didn't. The whole family had to get Social Services to admit that she couldn't cope (age 83 at this point). It was a hard job getting a home to accept him since he's managed to piss off 3 local ones when he had respite care, and when he finally had a place, he kept trying to escape. One time he asked my DS to get him a map and a compass!
My DP did as much as he could, but we live 250 miles away, and have to work.
Anyway, FiL died earlier this year, after a long and difficult four years after his initial stroke.
OP, If you can find a home, then your dad will have the best care, even if he doesn't like it at first.

Doesn't matter if he has capacity or not if he's unable to physically look after himself - it's not your mother's job to become an unpaid and abused carer to facilitate him. Because he will tell any paid carers to piss off and scream for his slave instead - or they'll walk out because they're not being paid enough for the level of shit he'll unleash at them.

Without her as the unpaid and abused carer 24/7, he's not fit to return to the house. So he has to stay in an appropriate care home, keeping him safe and, more importantly, frankly, keeping your Mum safe from him for the first time in decades.

Tell him to stop being an abusive shit and then you'll see.

If he can't keep it up for say 2 weeks, well then you have your answer.

We had desperately hoped that my grandmother would have some happy, healthy years living without my abusive grandfather. It didn't happen for her, she tragically had a stroke and lost her independence. Don't burden your mother with him.

There is absolutely no way in hell an 80 year old woman can look after a man in that health. I think you are mad for even considering it.
He can’t come home. It leaves your mum wide open to abuse frankly - it’s not an option. You cannot have the same level of care at home as you can in residential settings; it won’t be possible what you are suggesting and leaves everyone very very vulnerable.

Re He hates it - I would do my very best to improve it for him so it becomes more bearable for him. Put as much as you can in place with the care provider to improve his quality of life as much as you can.

Im sorry OP- it’s a horrible place to be having to choose; but he absolutely cannot come home. X

If he has capacity to make the decision then it is not up to you or your mum to decide.

keeping a person away from their home if they have the capacity to return is not ok. If your mum does not want to live with him then she is welcome to leave.

Protect your mother.

Don't send him home to your mum.

A friend of mine had to make exactly the same decision (parents same age, he had a stroke and was verbally aggressive) a couple of years ago and she opted to keep him in a care home. It was tough, but she never regretted saving her mum's sanity.

I’m sorry but this is complete fantasy.
Caring for someone in a very high needs situation in your 80s will nearly kill you or actually kill you. Respite is crap and the reality is it’s hell for the person doing the caring

For my mum it would be much better if he was in a home. Then she would be free. But he'd absolutely hate it. He keeps crying, begging me to let him go home.

This sounds really tough OP. Your dad is desperate to go home but has he thought at all about the impact this will have on your mum?

Could you gently point out your concerns that it would be too much for her? He still needs a lot of care.

Is their home large enough to be effectively split into two completely separate homes. Separate kitchens, bathrooms, living rooms, bedrooms and ideally entrances?

Then your DF could be at home with carers looking after him and crucially your DM can live a fully independent life where she can see him easily if/when she chooses but can also entirely retreat to her own home without any negative impact on either her (should be protected from any shouting/abuse) or any negative impact on your dad as he wouldn't be reliant on her.

It would be worth getting this sorted before your DF moves home as it's a complete break from the previous status quo.

@JustAllRoundShit You say you feel that you should at least give him the chance to go home, but realistically it isn’t you who would be suffering, it’s your dm. You have said “it will be a massive burden on my mum. Massive responsibility, massive mental strain because he keeps yelling for her (and not very nicely)”. Do you really want that for her?

If you feel very strongly about taking him out of the Rehab Home and are
”worried that she'll spend the last few years of her life (she's early 80s) being stuck by his bed, caring for him and basically just getting yelled at all the time” then take him to live with you. If you can’t cope with it, neither can she. Money doesn’t seem to be a problem for you, so you could always take both your dp’s to live with you/build a granny flat for them etc. so your dm has your input and support.

Please do not put this caring onto your elderly dm. She deserves some happiness, in her last years.

Please don’t bring him home. Your mum will not be able to cope even with help. I made the very difficult decision to put my husband in care when his dementia got worse. I just couldn’t cope any more and my health started to deteriorate too. Your father will get the care he needs and your mother can visit him.

In the kindest possible way, @JustAllRoundShit, what are your reasons for that?
It all sounds like your DM's life would be hell - even if she's not 'on duty' (which she will be unless you arrange full-time / live-in carers) as she would be there to see and hear it all.
Sorry if I sound harsh, but I know the toll it took on me to try to deal with my own DM's needs towards the end of her life, which I wouldn't wish on anyone else.
I would suggest you need to consider not only your DF in this, but also your DM - it seems that you are more concerned because your DF is so domineering, which is stopping you from looking at the bigger picture.
Have you actually asked the rehab home what they think?
I think that's the first action you need to take, as while I'm sure you are acting out of care and love, you need to put that aside and consider what is best for everyone concerned.

Presumably that will then mean that his care needs are not met and he has to go into a home anyway.

He stays in the home. Be made his bed (quite literally), so he can lie in it. It doesn't matter that he was a good father. He was a shit husband. So unless your mum is keen to have him home, then the answer is no. She's probably hesistant to say no because she's been bullied her whole life. It's her call.

This is a terrible idea. He cannot go home, it will kill your mother.

My friends mum just had a breakdown after being in the same position so now he's got dad back in a care home and mum in a ward, she's been committed.

Please do not bring your Dad home - your Mum also has a right to living in an environment that is safe and appropriate for her. The reality is with complex care packages is that they fail - people/ carers get poorly, leave the job and there maybe no cover so that any care on that day will fall to your Mum.