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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To let my dad go home at the cost of my mum's well being?

344 replies

JustAllRoundShit · 22/08/2023 18:08

A couple of months ago my dad (mid 80s) had a stroke. He requires full time care as he is very weak, can't get up or walk or do anything else himself. He's fully there cognitively but very apathetic in the day. Just wants to sleep all the time. When he is not sleeping he is very agitated, aggressive and very quick to anger with lots of shouting.

He is currently in a rehab home kind of thing. He seems to be slightly improving there but he absolutely hates it and wants to go home. I totally understand why. He's always been very independent and also very dominating. It must be terrible for him to be so out of control and helpless, completely at the mercy of the carers. I would hate it as well.

I think we could organise staff to look after him at home. It would take a lot of planning, lots of staff, money, etc but it's doable (we are not in the UK). The problem is it will be a massive burden on my mum. Massive responsibility, massive mental strain because he keeps yelling for her (and not very nicely) and I'm worried that she'll spend the last few years of her life (she's early 80s) being stuck by his bed, caring for him and basically just getting yelled at all the time.

I don't want that for her. She's done her bit for him her entire life (he hasn't been the best husband. Good father but very dominating, borderline abusive husband). For my mum it would be much better if he was in a home. Then she would be free. But he'd absolutely hate it. He keeps crying, begging me to let him go home. I just don't know what to do.

What would you do?

Yanbu: bring him home, while trying to set up the house so that he will trouble my mum as little as possible

Yabu: let him stay in a home and give your mum peace. She's done her bit and we can't expect her to take on this burden.

OP posts:
WinterDeWinter · 22/08/2023 20:14

It's a terrible situation in which only one can benefit. Who should be centred here - the abusive one, or the abused one?

If your mother was so fucked up by years of abuse that she was begging you to bring him home, that would be one thing. Still morally very difficult but I could see why you wouldn't want her to be torn up with guilt and pain for the rest of her life. You'd be doing it for her - as fucked up as she was.

But that's not what's happening. She's not begging you to bring him home. She's likely desperate for him to stay there, but is so ground down and abused and fucked up that she can't articulate that for herself.

Only one person can get what they want here. Which one should it be?

Wheresthebloomingsummersunshine · 22/08/2023 20:17

Looking after 80yoDF nearly killed my DM (she had a massive heart attack brought on the stress of caring for him). I'm 30 years younger and a carer and its hard physical work and relentless, even if your family member is lovely. If they're a bully then I wouldn't do that to my DM and not sure why you're prioritising his wishes over hers? He's being selfish and already guilt tripping your DM into visiting twice a day which is unsustainable.

WhistPie · 22/08/2023 20:17

You say that he was abusive, OP. Have you, maybe, been conditioned to think this is normal and learnt to continue this behaviour from him towards your mother?

Bansheed · 22/08/2023 20:17

He has been a bad husband. He can reap what he sowed

Nowdontmakeamess · 22/08/2023 20:19

JustAllRoundShit · 22/08/2023 18:11

I should add that I don't live in the same country and as I have young children I can't move here either. I have just come here for a few weeks to help out my parents.

Your father is going to get worse, not better. There is no way you should place the burden of his care on your 80 year old mother. You aren’t even in the same country so can offer no practical support or care. If you weren’t getting involved he would have to stay in the care home, that is the safest place for him (& your DM). It’s sad for him and his family but this is what old age looks like for many people.

Original poster
JustAllRoundShit · 22/08/2023 20:21

CrossStitchX · 22/08/2023 19:07

It's not just about what the OP's mum "wants". She might want her husband home for the routine and the consistency and to have things back the way they always were.

But sometimes with parents in this situation the kids have to step up and think not about what the parents want, but what is practical and achievable. However much an 80 year old wants to be full time carer for their partner, the reality is that they physically cannot.

OP you have to take your mum out of the equation. Is it practical to arrange full time carers for your father, to do ALL of the difficult personal care of taking him to the toilet, showering him, arranging medication, dressing him etc etc etc? If not, then he can't come home because your mother simply can't do it.

It is really really hard, we recently went through this with my dad who had advanced dementia and a mum who thought she could cope, until she couldn't.

Yes, that is basically what I would like to achieve. Bring my dad home and have carers and other paid help care for him as if my mum wasn't around. My mum could just go to visit him in his room for a bit in the morning and afternoon the way she would do if he was in a home. I don't want her to care at all for him. I don't want her sitting by his side holding his hand or whatever.

Realistically of course she would have to get involved with the carers as they would be in her home and they would probably go to her with questions or needs.

When I said my dad can only come home if she can ignore his yelling I meant if she can ignore him calling for her and learn to say no and just not go to him. Someone above said it's unlikely she will learn to set boundaries in her 80s and they are probably right.

I just can't imagine leaving my dad in that home. He has no autonomy there. None whatsoever. There is absolutely nothing there for him. It would be worse than death. It's not even the home's fault. It's just the combination of his particular condition post stroke and not being at home. At least at home he could tell the carers if he wants to go outside.

OP posts:
FedUpMumof10YO · 22/08/2023 20:21

Life lesson : be nice or you'll end up in a home.

Shame he didn't learn this one.

JudgeRudy · 22/08/2023 20:22

I don't understand why this decision is yours? If he wants to come home and its a viable option I don't really think anyone can stop him. Has your mum said she doesn't want him home? Of course if he's abusive or one of them just don't want to be together, they can separate. It doesn't seem right to deliberately stand in the way of him coming home because your parents won't consider a divorce.
What will happen if you do nothing?

CoralDaffodil · 22/08/2023 20:22

I know you say this isn’t the UK. But working in this area in the UK under UK law I don’t quite understand the situation. I’m guessing your father doesn’t have capacity to decide where to live as he id wanting to leave the care home but no one seems to be facilitating that. If that’s the case I would say 100% keep him where he is. However you also say he’s cognitively fine (and so I presume has the ability to make that decision) in which case if he wants to go home surely he can as he can’t be stopped.

BlueMongoose · 22/08/2023 20:24

Freshair1 · 22/08/2023 18:10

You've answered your own question. Put him in a home.

You cannot 'put' people anywhere they don't want to go- unless you have some form of legal guardianship of them. This is going to have to be a negotiated solution.

margegunderson · 22/08/2023 20:25

I've got parents in their 80s. Mum does everything and dad sits in his chair and according to her doesn't speak to her but does yell at her sometimes. She's very miserable and complains a lot but feels terrible if she's taken on a short holiday or goes out for a morning with an oldies group. I'd leave him in the home tbh.

WhereYouLeftIt · 22/08/2023 20:25

First off @JustAllRoundShit . I really think you need to put yourself and your wishes and your sense of guilt to one side. Why am I talking about sense of guilt? Look at some of what you said, pulled together.

"It must be terrible for him to be so out of control and helpless, completely at the mercy of the carers. I would hate it as well."

"He keeps crying, begging me to let him go home. I just don't know what to do."

"... but I feel I owe it to him to try."

Can you see that all these statements are about you, and how you feel? Please don't let that cloud your judgement here, try to look at the situation as unemotionally as possible. I know that's difficult, but you must.

Also - it's not unknown for those who have had a stroke to have altered emotions afterwards, and to be unable to control their emotions as they once did. I wonder if this is in play here. You describe your dad as "crying, begging me" and I'd hazard a guess that you've never seen him like this before. And for that reason, you might be interpreting it as how deeply he's feeling it, how desperate it is. But it might not be the case.

(https://www.stroke.org.uk/effects-of-stroke/emotional-changes#Difficulty%20controlling%20your%20emotions%20(emotionalism))

"He's fully there cognitively but very apathetic in the day. Just wants to sleep all the time. When he is not sleeping he is very agitated, aggressive and very quick to anger with lots of shouting."

Is that more of less quick to anger than pre-stroke? If more, consider the emotional lability mentioned on that stroke website. If it's the same level as before - all the more reason not to inflict him on your mother. Apathy - is it apathy? It could be, emotionally from the stroke. Or is it just that he expects people to run around after him? You describe him as "very dominating", so it could be that too.

"He is currently in a rehab home kind of thing. He seems to be slightly improving there but he absolutely hates it and wants to go home."

It is still probably the best place for him. He will be getting therapy, physio to help him recover physical function as much as he can. I would emphasise to him as much as you can that he avails himself of the therapy as much as possible.

"I'd like to bring him home for a week to see if it can work and if it doesn't or if my mum says so then he'll go into a home but I feel I owe it to him to try. I just can't imagine leaving him in a home for the rest of his life (most likely) when he's so desperate to go home."

But your mum won't say so, will she? It's just you trying to shift the responsibility onto her shoulders, which you know are not strong enough to withstand the hectoring she will get from him. If you were going to 'bring him home' to YOUR home, that would be your choice. But you wouldn't be. You'd be burdening your mother with an out-and-out bully, and she's been conditioned by that bully over decades to accept his bullying. You speak of what you owe to him - what do you think you owe to her? Do you owe her a miserable last few years to her life? Really? You owe her to make the last few years of her life "getting yelled at all the time"? Is that really what you hink is a reasonable choice for you to make?

"What would you do?"
I would do the right thing by both of them. I would arrange for his continued rehabilitation at the facility he's currently at. It is the best-placed to recover him as much function as he can. Your mother can visit, and it is within her power to leave when his "very agitated, aggressive and very quick to anger" behaviuor gets too much for her.

If you owe your dad anything, you owe him not to be remembered as a tyrannical bullying arse.

https://www.stroke.org.uk/effects-of-stroke/emotional-changes#Difficulty%20controlling%20your%20emotions%20(emotionalism)

loreau · 22/08/2023 20:25

If your Mum wanted your Dad home, she would have said just that. But she hasn't.

She's too scared after years of abuse to voice her opinion. She is relying on you to protect her. So, it's really big burden.. but have to be the bad guy.

Your father's behaviour sounds very, very difficult. Fairer to spread the burden across a range of different carers rather than your Mum to shoulder it 24/7.

founddory · 22/08/2023 20:26

OP you really sound like you've made up your mind and what you want is for other posters to validate your decision so you don't feel so guilty.

Your poor mum

DinnaeFashYersel · 22/08/2023 20:26

@OhComeOnFFS

Yes I have. It doesn't negate the fact that if both these adults have capacity then they get to make the decisions about their own lives. Even if one of them isn't a nice person.

WinterDeWinter · 22/08/2023 20:29

WhereYouLeftIt · 22/08/2023 20:25

First off @JustAllRoundShit . I really think you need to put yourself and your wishes and your sense of guilt to one side. Why am I talking about sense of guilt? Look at some of what you said, pulled together.

"It must be terrible for him to be so out of control and helpless, completely at the mercy of the carers. I would hate it as well."

"He keeps crying, begging me to let him go home. I just don't know what to do."

"... but I feel I owe it to him to try."

Can you see that all these statements are about you, and how you feel? Please don't let that cloud your judgement here, try to look at the situation as unemotionally as possible. I know that's difficult, but you must.

Also - it's not unknown for those who have had a stroke to have altered emotions afterwards, and to be unable to control their emotions as they once did. I wonder if this is in play here. You describe your dad as "crying, begging me" and I'd hazard a guess that you've never seen him like this before. And for that reason, you might be interpreting it as how deeply he's feeling it, how desperate it is. But it might not be the case.

(https://www.stroke.org.uk/effects-of-stroke/emotional-changes#Difficulty%20controlling%20your%20emotions%20(emotionalism))

"He's fully there cognitively but very apathetic in the day. Just wants to sleep all the time. When he is not sleeping he is very agitated, aggressive and very quick to anger with lots of shouting."

Is that more of less quick to anger than pre-stroke? If more, consider the emotional lability mentioned on that stroke website. If it's the same level as before - all the more reason not to inflict him on your mother. Apathy - is it apathy? It could be, emotionally from the stroke. Or is it just that he expects people to run around after him? You describe him as "very dominating", so it could be that too.

"He is currently in a rehab home kind of thing. He seems to be slightly improving there but he absolutely hates it and wants to go home."

It is still probably the best place for him. He will be getting therapy, physio to help him recover physical function as much as he can. I would emphasise to him as much as you can that he avails himself of the therapy as much as possible.

"I'd like to bring him home for a week to see if it can work and if it doesn't or if my mum says so then he'll go into a home but I feel I owe it to him to try. I just can't imagine leaving him in a home for the rest of his life (most likely) when he's so desperate to go home."

But your mum won't say so, will she? It's just you trying to shift the responsibility onto her shoulders, which you know are not strong enough to withstand the hectoring she will get from him. If you were going to 'bring him home' to YOUR home, that would be your choice. But you wouldn't be. You'd be burdening your mother with an out-and-out bully, and she's been conditioned by that bully over decades to accept his bullying. You speak of what you owe to him - what do you think you owe to her? Do you owe her a miserable last few years to her life? Really? You owe her to make the last few years of her life "getting yelled at all the time"? Is that really what you hink is a reasonable choice for you to make?

"What would you do?"
I would do the right thing by both of them. I would arrange for his continued rehabilitation at the facility he's currently at. It is the best-placed to recover him as much function as he can. Your mother can visit, and it is within her power to leave when his "very agitated, aggressive and very quick to anger" behaviuor gets too much for her.

If you owe your dad anything, you owe him not to be remembered as a tyrannical bullying arse.

Great post, much more useful and careful than mine but basically saying the same thing.

Your mother is conditioned to accept his abuse so she can't make the decision to have him home and knowing what you know and that it will not be you who suffers his abusive behaviour, you can't make it on her behalf.

Littlelibrary · 22/08/2023 20:30

DinnaeFashYersel · 22/08/2023 20:26

@OhComeOnFFS

Yes I have. It doesn't negate the fact that if both these adults have capacity then they get to make the decisions about their own lives. Even if one of them isn't a nice person.

I’ve read this whole thread and it shocks me how few people are understanding this.

Frogger8395 · 22/08/2023 20:31

There’s another solution isn’t there. Move into your parents and look after him yourself.

IDontLoveTheWayYouLie · 22/08/2023 20:33

Get your dad to live with you if he wants more of a homely environment to live in but it's not fair on your mum if she doesn't want that. You can't expect her to deal with all of that (because it's constant whether she is actually doing the 'caring' or not).

Original poster
JustAllRoundShit · 22/08/2023 20:33

godmum56 · 22/08/2023 19:18

You've been asked once and not answered. Does he have capacity? Because if he does then he gets to choose and if he doesn't then he needs somone to be appointed to decide for him.

I'm not sure if he has capacity. I think he does but legally I don't know what the threshold he is. I don't think he has the strength to really fight the decision we make apart from crying and shouting.

I Don't know what the legal position is in the country they live in but culturally this is my responsibility. Right or wrong (and thinking about it it's actually very wrong) it is the children who make this decision. If I ask the care home to they will keep him there against his wishes. If I ask the doctors to they will sedate him to take him back.

It's funny because when I write it down like that it seems so glaringly wrong and it's like that with everything in the care home. Nothing is his choice. Yes, he's physically disabled and not full competent mentally but he should have some autonomy. Maybe that is why I feel so wrong about leaving him in a care him. It feels like condemning him to prison and though he hasn't been a great husband he hasn't done anything to deserve a prison sentence. But how else can I protect my mum from this?

It's not the care home by the way. It's just the way things are done here culturally.

OP posts:
AnnaMagnani · 22/08/2023 20:34

Are you 110% certain he is fully with it?

Being able to answer 'Where do you want to live?''At home please' is not the same as having mental capacity.

If he has no insight into how much care he needs and spends the short periods he is awake shouting and being abusive, it suggests he does have cognitive problems.

I wonder if the fact he has never been that nice means that you think his behaviour is just understandable for his personality now he is disabled, rather than the sign of a heavily damaged brain.

Iateallthechocolate · 22/08/2023 20:37

This is a marriage problem, not a medical problem. I'd step back. She could have left by now if she wanted to. She could tell him she will live separately. She could have him home and live in different rooms.
Their marriage dynamic is theirs to fix or fail at, not yours. It's not fair for this to be your decision. I would refuse to get involved.

TheYearOfSmallThings · 22/08/2023 20:37

Please keep him in the home. It's not fair on your mother otherwise.

Gumptionesque · 22/08/2023 20:38

I would protect my mum.

ChubbyMorticia · 22/08/2023 20:40

Why not hire staff to help him in the facility? You can usually hire a private person to do things like take him out during the day for a walk, etc. Or even hire a health aide as a companion to take your mom to visit him, help out with a few extras and then take her home again.