To let my dad go home at the cost of my mum's well being?

[JustAllRoundShit]

A couple of months ago my dad (mid 80s) had a stroke. He requires full time care as he is very weak, can't get up or walk or do anything else himself. He's fully there cognitively but very apathetic in the day. Just wants to sleep all the time. When he is not sleeping he is very agitated, aggressive and very quick to anger with lots of shouting.

He is currently in a rehab home kind of thing. He seems to be slightly improving there but he absolutely hates it and wants to go home. I totally understand why. He's always been very independent and also very dominating. It must be terrible for him to be so out of control and helpless, completely at the mercy of the carers. I would hate it as well.

I think we could organise staff to look after him at home. It would take a lot of planning, lots of staff, money, etc but it's doable (we are not in the UK). The problem is it will be a massive burden on my mum. Massive responsibility, massive mental strain because he keeps yelling for her (and not very nicely) and I'm worried that she'll spend the last few years of her life (she's early 80s) being stuck by his bed, caring for him and basically just getting yelled at all the time.

I don't want that for her. She's done her bit for him her entire life (he hasn't been the best husband. Good father but very dominating, borderline abusive husband). For my mum it would be much better if he was in a home. Then she would be free. But he'd absolutely hate it. He keeps crying, begging me to let him go home. I just don't know what to do.

What would you do?

Yanbu: bring him home, while trying to set up the house so that he will trouble my mum as little as possible

Yabu: let him stay in a home and give your mum peace. She's done her bit and we can't expect her to take on this burden.

Presumably your mum is of similar age to your dad, Why would you heap all that on your mum, from my experience it would be too stressful for both of them and shorten what little of their lives they have left. Let the experts at the home deal with him.

I feel for you OP and I'm not sure I'm aware enough to offer any advice. It's incredibly hard for you, as their child and living in a distant country, to make a decision. It's also hard for your father, kind of losing his liberty as he will see it, but extremely difficult for your mother being so elderly herself and having to live with a partner like you describe. On the other hand, visiting him in a home isn't necessarily an easy pass for her either.

I think, on balance, all things considered, returning your father home would very much depend on the kind of person you were able to employ for his care. Even if you found the ideal person, how would everyone cope if that person became ill or left? particularly if at short, or no, notice?

Getting old and needing help absolutely sucks. Throw an unhelpful partner or character into the mix and there really is no simple solution.

What are the chances of him actually allowing staff to do the care work that your Mum could actually do?

I can easily see a situation where staff are being paid to sit around whilst he berates and bullies your Mum for anything and everything she can physically do.

I wouldn't contemplate it, and it sounds like your Mum would prefer you to make the decision to put him in a home, then its not her fault - I think that is a kindness you should do her at this point.

As for him... he is not going to like being home but having staff any more than he likes where he is now, or would like a home. His anger and rage will be much more about what he cannot do now, and thats down to his physical health, not where he is, even though he won't see it that way.

There is a strong chance his behaviour will get significantly worse if he goes home, because it will bring it home very hard to him that he is deteriorating and he really CAN'T do as he pleases now.

You've been asked once and not answered. Does he have capacity? Because if he does then he gets to choose and if he doesn't then he needs somone to be appointed to decide for him.

That's his home too. His mental health may well be due to the side of his brain that was effected by the stroke or just his personality.
But that doesn't mean he should be made homeless or moved to a different home simply because his wife lives there.
It means he needs his medication reviewed and physio and day centres need to be confirmed. Your mum can go on care respite retreats or visit you/you could visit and give your mum a break.

My DGM was in exactly your DM's position OP, DGF came home and she effectively lost the last 10 years of her life and the opportunity/freedom to do all the things she'd planned and looked forward to for her retirement years. By the time he died she was bitter, resentful, utterly worn out and in poor health herself, she died 2 years later. Providing care at home at this level is too much to expect of a women your DM's age OP, and that means it's not in your DF's best interests either, regardless of how he feels.

No one wants to go into a home (DGF begged to go home too) but we can see with hindsight it would have been better for both my DGP's if he had. He was no happier being bedbound and dependent at home than he would have been in a care home tbh, it was the loss of independence he hated and no one could fix that for him. Their house was filled with resentment and despair by the end (sorry, I know that's bleak) and I feel like those last years ruined their relationship when there had always been love between them, despite his bad points.

I should add they had plenty of support, family there daily helping out/giving her respite, carers in 4 times a day, but it was still far too much for a woman her age. DGF became very demanding of her time and attention and I know she felt suffocated by the weight of it all, however much we tried to take off her shoulders. I hope you can persuade your DM not to take this on, there comes a point where care needs to be provided by professionals and it sounds like that's where you are

It sounds to me like your mum doesn't really want him home, but doesn't feel that she can say this openly (perhaps because of his abuse of her and how angry she thinks he would be) and so is trying to get you to make the decision instead.

Allowing him to go home would amount to being complicit in the ongoing abuse and exploitation of your mum.

I have a long history as a Nurse working in dementia care, I saw so many poor relatives bullied and verbally abused by patients, however they were safe because they could walk away and go home to safety. I also experienced one lovely lady who moved house to take her husband home, she lasted 2 weeks and he had to come back because she couldn't cope. It's worth remembering most individuals with stroke or dementia cannot help their behaviour and many have complete personality changes, although some retain their previous personalities. If you can I would leave dad in long term care and leave mum in the position of being able to visit and leave as she sees fit.

I would find out what your mum wants to do.

You say you’re thinking about doing a trial run at your mums but I think once he’s home it’ll be much more difficult to move home out and your mum will feel more guilty.

I personally would put him in a care home for 6 months - 1 year and then decide what to do.

I do feel sorry for him but he needs care that your mum can’t provide and I think it’s going to be a pain having carers in every day.

Practically speaking, your Dad's quality of life is likely to be poorer regardless of where he is (and is likely to be better in fact in a specialist home where they can help him properly) whereas your mum sounds like she's healthy still and having your dad home would impact her physical and mental health quite badly.

Sorry, reading that back it sounds very harsh but I don't mean any of it unkindly!

Finding a nice home for him would be kinder to everyone involved, OP.

This basically happened to my parents in law. In the end we had to ask social services to come, they removed one parent for their safety into a home. The stroke has caused them to become like an amplified version of themselves, they’d already been pretty abusive but it got worse as a result of the stroke. It was the best thing that could have happened and the parent removed is so much happier now, like a different person. They still both regularly see each other.

Sounds horrendous for your mum. Why are you sacrificing her happiness for his? Leave her alone, she’s elderly too and the strain could kill her.

My dads in a home too after a stroke, he’s far better looked after and very content now.

I just wanted to echo @MillWood85

my mum looked after my terminally ill dad for the last few years of his life, and put her own health aside. She died January 22, and he was very hard work. I only found out how hard, when I looked after him until he died Sept 22. Both refused any outside help, I wished I had stepped in more when I had the opportunity. If he goes home, you’ll struggle to get him into a home, I’d sell it to him that you’ll have to see how he improves as to what the future holds, but that’s just me. It’s a dreadful thing to have to be in charge of.

I forgot to add, since DH moved into the home he has been much happier. The anger has calmed now he does not have family to shout and scream at, the carers won’t take it and he has accepted he cannot act like that. Visits are still difficult as he still takes it out on us, but at least we can walk away knowing he is looked after and we have a break from the abuse.

I think it would be really wrong to put this on your mum if you have the option not to. Especially if you don't even live in the same country to lighten the load.
How about a residential facility that's close by.

I do agree that I wonder if your mum doesn’t actually want him home but she feels guilty saying so.
Lorre of older people take their in sickness and in health vows very seriously.

I too would feel guilty if my loved one was begging to come back to their own home but unfortunately home isn’t always a suitable option.

Has your dad been assessed for returning home?

can he manage his own basic care? If not, what support will he need? Can he turn himself in bed, get up from the floor if he fell, get on and off the toilet, manage a stair, does he understand what he is being told, can he communicate clearly, does he have capacity?

in the U.K. your mum would be entitled to a carers assessment to see what she would manage, and if he needs care more than x4/day and she can’t make up the slack then it often leads to a crisis. Which is usually awful.

does your dad understand how much help he needs? If he was in care could you bring his own furniture and things to make it more familiar?

it boils down to 3 things - does he have capacity, is he safe and is your mother safe.

im sorry, it is a horrible situation to be in for you all, especially your dad

Do your adult parents not get to make these decisions for themselves?

I've told DH that if I ever get to the stage where I can't wipe my own arse and feed myself then to put me in a home. I don't want him or my children to have to look after me.

If they are in the UK it's his decision. Unless he lacks mental capacity to make that decision.

Didn't you read the thread?

If both your parents have the capacity to make decisions then it’s not your call to make. It’s between the two of them.

I’d hate for my mum to be in that position, but I wouldn’t make the decision for her… old age doesn’t mean not having the right to make decisions, even bad ones, for yourself.

If you do bring him home get a 24 hour carer who will be responsible for prescriptions, medical appointments etc. carers who just come in for a short time can be lovely but don’t have responsibility for anything outside of their allotted time.

I have recently been through this but it was my mum who needed to go into a home after lengthy hospital stay. My Dad couldn't bring himself to do it but there was no way he would be able to cope with caring for her and all the coordination carers coming in and out of your home requires due to his own health problems and cognitive decline. Not to mention coordinating all her medical appointments and medicines. Plus, you have to think about things deteriorating down the line and turning into a crisis. In order to make the decision easier for my Dad we spoke to adult social services and asked them to make an assessment of my Mum's needs. We made it clear that she would be self funded and what we were looking for was an assessment of where would be best for her in terms of all her needs being met (not whether she meets the criteria for social services funded care home which is pretty high these days). Due to some off the record conversations we knew that a care home would be recommended. My Dad then felt able to support this decision because it had been recommended by a professional, so to speak. Probably sounds a bit underhanded to some but there you go.... Obviously if you feel that a care home is the best place than that is enough, you don't need a professional to back you up but for us it really helped with getting everyone on board.

One thing is for sure when trying to decide what's best for elderly parents. There isn't really a good outcome for anyone. It's mainly about keeping them safe and making sure no one is going to suffer unnecessarily, rather than being able to make anyone happy so to speak. Tough decisions have to be made and it's really hard on everyone. There isn't really a right or good decision. I wish you all the best with it all, it's such a difficult time. You sound like a caring daughter. They are lucky to have you.