Page 9 | Who's in charge of arranging the funeral - siblings or adult children?

RH13 · 2023-08-16T14:04:14+00:00

Earlier this year a relative died of a sudden and short illness at 56. He was divorced with two adult children with whom he had a normal loving parent-child relationship. He had 4 siblings, and they decided from the outset and without any debate that they were to be in charge of all the funeral planning, undertakers, wake, obituary, etc. His siblings would not let his children have any role in deciding the funeral service, music, readings, photos, logistics, etc. They also arranged the funeral on the wedding anniversary of one of his children. I don't think this was deliberate but it goes to show how little consultation they gave the children. They have also had his locks changed and said the children can't access his house without their permission. And they have informed his neighbours, who have new spare keys, not to let the children in if they ask. I don't know if it's relevant or not, but no will has been found. Is it normal for siblings to take precedence over adult children in these matters? (If so, then I guess it's YABU for this). I am fortunate not to have had to deal with this yet so my knowledge is lacking here. Wouldn't the children be next of kin in his case?

Fiddleyflop · 17/08/2023 06:10

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Original poster

RH13 · 17/08/2023 06:33

Netaporter · 17/08/2023 05:30

@RH13 Assuming that they haven’t the money for a solicitor/don’t know where to start, The children urgently need to register what is known as a ‘caveat’ with the probate services. You’ve had links to the government website above. It costs very little. This prevents probate (and I think letters of administration) being granted until the situation is looked at carefully. They should also check with the Office of the public guardian (OPG) to see if any of the siblings had been granted Power of Attorney (may take a couple of weeks to get the answer) The title deed will not be able to be changed without bank involvement if there is an outstanding mortgage. Combined with the other recommended actions on here they could significantly reduce the cost of a solicitor’s involvement by going armed with the grunt work done. It is an offence to access a deceased person’s bank account once you know they have passed so knowing this information will be useful too.

So in order I would:

Nominate between them one sensible child to coordinate the children’s response to all of this
Register the caveat
Obtain the Death Certificate
Check the POA register with the OPG (note that having POA doesn’t provide cover for that person to be acting after a death but it is useful to know)
Download a copy of the Title from the land registry
register an alert on the property via the LR website
Go to the bank/building society registered as having an interest on the title deeds and explain the situation and get advice
Go to the deceased’s bank (if known) and explain your concerns surrounding the sibling activities. Check if an ‘executor’s account’ was created.
Check with HMRC that pensions/benefits etc have been stopped and they have been told of the deceased’s passing. If the siblings have been using money gained by not declaring a death in order to pay a mortgage etc they will take this very seriously indeed.
Get a locksmith to open up and change the locks and fit a hard-wired ring door bell or CCTV to the property with internal cameras.
Register any concerns about misappropriation of funds with Action Fraud (you can call the police who’ll be sympathetic but will tell you to do this anyway)
Ensure that the property is correctly insured to protect their assets.
establish with the funeral director who paid for the funeral and how (see point 8 above)
Once the cameras and locks are changed go to a solicitor and ensure a letter to the siblings is sent setting out the children’s position clearly.

In situations like this where actions are very suspicious it is best to consider next steps before they happen. Sadly it is a bit like a game of chess. One whiff of inheritance I’m afraid tends to send previously amicable relationships somewhat skew whiffed. Good luck to your cousins, it does sound pretty awful.

Thank you very much for this clarity, really helpful, and to everyone else for advice. Will let the daughters know.

In response to legitimate musings about potentially difficult relationship between daughters and divorced dad. The mum and dad made a huge effort in spite of it. Deceased and his ex divorced when the daughters were primary school age, but for example, after both their A-Levels and then both their uni graduations, they went on holiday all four of them, and did all the special occasions as a unit. Mum attended some of our family weddings after the divorce. She’s been great in this and was totally devastated despite being 20 years divorced.

A lot of your comments have actually made me realise the situation is more sinister than I realised, and I’ll be telling the children to be more active and get legal advice asap. Thanks a lot for all this.

OP posts:

Fiddleyflop · 17/08/2023 06:36

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Mumof2teens79 · 17/08/2023 06:47

I could understand if the "children" were younger adults and his siblings had offered help and support....but it should be just that, helping out, making arrangements but with most of the decisions being the children's or joint.

If one was named executor I could understand controlling the house access, but that's not the case.

milveycrohn · 17/08/2023 06:51

"Yes but the question was what relationship did these adult children have with their father"
Doesn't matter. If there is no will, (and no spouse), then it is the children who inherit under intestacy laws (UK), whether or not the children had any relationship with the parent or not.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 17/08/2023 06:54

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Totally irrelevant as there is no will. Deceased could have left all or part of his estate to siblings but only by making a will. He didn't.

Fiddleyflop · 17/08/2023 06:55

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Fiddleyflop · 17/08/2023 06:56

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AnSolas · 17/08/2023 07:00

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It makes no difference about how close the children and dad were as adults.

British tradition is that spouse and children do the arrangements. and other family only act when invited to act.
It is therefore seen as insulting and offensive to suggest that grown adult children can not do the last act of care for their parent
In most famalies even accidently pushing children out of the burial process will cause a mupti-generational split

Fiddleyflop · 17/08/2023 07:23

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x2boys · 17/08/2023 07:41

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She says,in the the first line of the the first post that they had a normal loving relationship so...
Regardless of that they would still.be next of kin my father in law died a,few weeks ago my husband hasn't seen in Jim years he cut hi.self off from.his kids years ago
My husband has been left to.sort through his possessions as he was still.his next of kin.

MarshyMcMarshFace · 17/08/2023 07:42

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That does not affect their legal entitled to his house and property if he died without leaving a will.

Under the laws linked by many PP which govern dying intestate.

Fiddleyflop · 17/08/2023 07:45

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londonrach · 17/08/2023 07:48

Children over siblings....very strange of siblings to do this.

AnSolas · 17/08/2023 08:17

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It makes zero difference

The only way the siblings had any right or a duty to take over the arrangements is if the children refused to act.

The children have rights as the parent left his family to create new family ties.
The children have a duty to act even if they dont want to due to a minimum level of care the dad would have given to them as children.
That duty can be very very transactional (bury and spit on grave) but the siblings had no righ to step in and take over except where both children refuse to attend.

OP is family, if any of that had happened the OP would have heard all about how the girls could not even take a day off to bury their dad and how ungrateful they are after all the ways he was a great dad to them as children Etc

The "hero" siblings changed the locks and locked the children out of their "second" home and were happy to point that out.

Fiddleyflop · 17/08/2023 08:19

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LittleBearPad · 17/08/2023 08:22

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But that’s irrelevant.

The children inherit and they should have sorted out the funeral.

LittleBearPad · 17/08/2023 08:23

The "hero" siblings changed the locks and locked the children out of their "second" home and were happy to point that out.

This is appalling. If there’s no will the house belongs to the children.

Fiddleyflop · 17/08/2023 08:46

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shelbaby · 17/08/2023 08:54

Always the adult children. I've never heard of any other family stepping in and especially taking over the way u mention.

TastyPastry · 17/08/2023 09:03

To be fair to the poster who believes there is a 'backstory' I agree that there must be something behind this.
Taking over the funeral could perhaps be explained as being a bit domineering or insensitive. But four adults in their 50s or 60s agreeing to change the locks on the house and specifically deny the daughters access?

I'm not referring to the relationship between the daughters and their father. That sounds a normal, loving relationship. But there must be something in the relationship between the siblings and the deceased to explain why they don't want his daughters to be able to access his papers, his belongings, his house. I know it's all getting a bit Agatha Christie but maybe there is some secret at the bottom of this. Something they or one of them knows or suspects which they don't want the daughters to know, for whatever reason. Something about his lifestyle, his past, his present. Or maybe they just know he's got a collection of Rolex watches hidden away somewhere which he promised them and they want to find them first.

It doesn't change anything, the daughters still need to get into the house and take legal advice but it would be very interesting to know what the siblings' motivation is.

LittleBearPad · 17/08/2023 09:10

TastyPastry · 17/08/2023 09:03

To be fair to the poster who believes there is a 'backstory' I agree that there must be something behind this.
Taking over the funeral could perhaps be explained as being a bit domineering or insensitive. But four adults in their 50s or 60s agreeing to change the locks on the house and specifically deny the daughters access?

I'm not referring to the relationship between the daughters and their father. That sounds a normal, loving relationship. But there must be something in the relationship between the siblings and the deceased to explain why they don't want his daughters to be able to access his papers, his belongings, his house. I know it's all getting a bit Agatha Christie but maybe there is some secret at the bottom of this. Something they or one of them knows or suspects which they don't want the daughters to know, for whatever reason. Something about his lifestyle, his past, his present. Or maybe they just know he's got a collection of Rolex watches hidden away somewhere which he promised them and they want to find them first.

It doesn't change anything, the daughters still need to get into the house and take legal advice but it would be very interesting to know what the siblings' motivation is.

Usually it’s greed

anyolddinosaur · 17/08/2023 09:19

They could want to protect past secrets - but unless that is that both the children are not biologically his, it's totally irrelevant to the legal position. And even if the children were not his they could possibly still take legal action since they were registered as children of the marriage and he treated them as his. They might want to get their DNA tests ready -and no it doesnt matter if the father is dead as long as some relatives of his parents have tested.

OP these are your relatives - have they said anything at all about what they propose to do with the house/why they are acting in a frankly insane way?

RedRadishes · 17/08/2023 09:35

I also agree that there will be a back story. The funeral arrangements are irrelevant, as it has already taken place and the daughters went along with it. Ownership of the house is the key question here, and it seems quite likely that the siblings have a legitimate claim to it for some reason. I'm sure all will be revealed in due course!

Cosyblankets · 17/08/2023 09:45

RedRadishes · 17/08/2023 09:35

I also agree that there will be a back story. The funeral arrangements are irrelevant, as it has already taken place and the daughters went along with it. Ownership of the house is the key question here, and it seems quite likely that the siblings have a legitimate claim to it for some reason. I'm sure all will be revealed in due course!

This must be the case