Who's in charge of arranging the funeral - siblings or adult children?

[RH13]

Earlier this year a relative died of a sudden and short illness at 56. He was divorced with two adult children with whom he had a normal loving parent-child relationship.

He had 4 siblings, and they decided from the outset and without any debate that they were to be in charge of all the funeral planning, undertakers, wake, obituary, etc.

His siblings would not let his children have any role in deciding the funeral service, music, readings, photos, logistics, etc.

They also arranged the funeral on the wedding anniversary of one of his children. I don't think this was deliberate but it goes to show how little consultation they gave the children.

They have also had his locks changed and said the children can't access his house without their permission. And they have informed his neighbours, who have new spare keys, not to let the children in if they ask. I don't know if it's relevant or not, but no will has been found.

Is it normal for siblings to take precedence over adult children in these matters? (If so, then I guess it's YABU for this). I am fortunate not to have had to deal with this yet so my knowledge is lacking here. Wouldn't the children be next of kin in his case?

There’s no legal standing for NoK

The siblings told the OP there was 'no will'. Is it possible that actually they think there might be one in their favour and that is why they have secured access to the house while they search for it. Or some indication of their brother's wishes in their favour?

There's not a chance that all four of them genuinely believe that this is legally and morally acceptable.

I don't know what they achieve by taking over all the funeral arrangements, unless it was purely out of spite.

And the changing of the locks on the house can't be justified in any way. Giving the neighbour a key, but not them? WTF?

Such awful people.

Yes agree from own experience, the man who passed away, his children are next of kin if no will states different from this, funds will be held in trust by a solicitor if not of age.

The children URGENTLY need to get a solicitor, who will arrange for the propertys locks to be changed possibly with the police in tow.

My dad died 2 weeks ago. I am one of 4 children and dad has 3 brothers and a sister.

I asked for input from all sides before I made any decisions and one sister was trying to take over from the word go. I could of just done everything myself but I didn't I made sure everyone was included.

Dad had a will and one sister is rushing that through under the pretence he might have left instructions for his funeral.

Absolutely this is the children’s responsibility. The siblings have behaved appallingly.
My father died (single) when my sister and I were similar ages. Our aunts were supportive and gave their input but we did everything in regards to the funeral, admin, the will, selling the house. Everything was our responsibility, as it should be.
They need a lawyer!

Are you attempting to argue semantics?

Because in England the children are the direct inheritors of an estate if the an unmarried person dies without a legal will. That is simple law.

The next of kin after death without an official standing document is the next immediate blood or legal relative. This goes in order of Husband/Wife, Children, Grandchildren, Parents, Siblings, Grandparents.

They won't be able to dispose of the house without probate and unless they pretend there are no children they won't be able to dispose and keep the assets. Sounds like you have some greedy cousins.

Because the question was asked who is responsible for the funeral

Families do really strange and sometimes very nasty things when a relative dies. My 2 sisters decided they were going to be in charge of everything (being a bit gobsmacked that our Mother had left the 3 of us all as equals).

The final straw for me was receiving a phone call from the Funeral Director at 7pm the night before the funeral advising me that the funeral was an hour later than I was told it was. This only came to light because I had put a Funeral Notice in the Paper giving the incorrect time.

The bitches had actually planned that me and ds were to turn up an hour late for my mum's funeral. I went alone and paid my respects before the funeral instead. It wasn't grief but greed that fired their path, obviously I've been NC since then, and they've not been missed either.

his children have their own lives with jobs etc. and don't need the hassle, and the siblings have more life experience.

So, if they did genuinely believe that they were doing the children a kindness, why the need to change the the deceased's locks and insist that the children be barred from entering the house? They've actually taken clear rights away from the deceased's daughters and given them over to some random people who happen to live in the same street as he did!

It's amazing how many people seem to think that siblings should be entitled to inherit automatically (obviously different if the will says that they do). Aside from the clear legal situation, it makes no real logical sense either.

Obviously, some people do die significantly younger than 'normal', but most people are fairly elderly when they die, and their siblings will be the same generation; what would be the point in somebody who's 85 leaving their money to somebody who's 81 and should be making firm plans (if not already) for what they will leave, rather than gain? I bet most of the siblings who try this on are just trying to somehow 'justify' their own children getting the money, in place of the deceased person's actual own children. Nasty.

Absolutely the adult children should be in control.

However, my mum died unexpectedly when me and my sibling were 22 and 24 - in our situation our uncle pretty much did everything in terms of funeral, will etc, we were both in such a state of shock. Is it possible they still see them as “children” and think they are helping out?

Helping out?
They've changed the locks!

It's got nothing to do with the siblings. What is wrong with people???? I've never heard of anything like this.

I forgot to add - the children need to seek legal advice on this, and quickly, and not let themselves be taken advantage of.

This seems really strange to me. Once the house is sold, the siblings must know they aren't entitled to any proceeds? Legally, children inherit when a parent died without a will, so why would they go through the trouble when they can't legally take anything from it?
Is there something in the house that they don't want the children taking? Something they want to keep for themselves? Is that why they've changed the locks!

? not ! !!

If there is no will, the surviving spouse has the first part of the estate, with the rest divided between any children. Obviously, if there is no spouse, then it all is divided equally between the children.
There are other rules, if there are no children, etc.
So, under UK law, any children would be the 'next of kin'. It doesn't really matter if you have not spoken to the parent for 20 years, unless there is a will, the children inherit equally.
Obviously if there is a will, then the testator can leave it all to whoever they wish, and a will, will usually appoint an executor, who would normally take charge.
Without that it would be one of the children.

This is completely ridiculous. One of them is definitely not NOK. You don’t have to be NOK to register a death and get a death certificate. Why don’t you read the rules of intestacy, there’s links to some of them upthread.

In fact, I’ll help you out, here’s one -

https://www.gov.uk/inherits-someone-dies-without-will

You may be executor to one of your relatives, but being executor does NOT make you NOK!

In fact my dm always put me down as NOK, as I was the one who helped and looked after her. However, my mum was old fashioned, so put her eldest son as executor. He had similar views to some on here and thought he should get everything and tried to get everything as eldest son. She did, however, give me a copy of her Will, as she suspected that he would try taking things he wasn’t entitled to and she wanted me to have. God knows why she made him executor!

DM actually left everything in the house (specifically mentioning her personal jewellery) to me and the rest of her estate to be split equally between myself and my 2 brothers. My eldest brother actually started emptying the house, despite my warning him that the contents belonged to me and I would take legal action against him. My other brother finally managed to get through to him that the cost of legal action would be claimed back out of his share of the estate. I knew what he was looking for (my dm’s jewellery), but my dm had decided to give me most of those items early in case he tried to steal them, so they were no longer in the house anyway. If they had still been in the house, he would definitely have taken them and would just have denied it and it would be his word against mine.

He really lost out, as I had intended giving him some of the things he wanted, but because of his behaviour he got nothing from the contents.

The siblings are absolutely nuts and are acting illegally. The children should get to a solicitor ASAP. They should also get the locks changed and not give the siblings a key.

This is all weird as hell. The conversation goes
"thanks for stepping in to register the death, Auntie Jane/Uncle Bob. I've talked to my sister and decided that I'm going to apply for the Letters of Administration because I'm better at paperwork. Do you have Dad's house keys with you or shall I come round to collect them tomorrow? We'll be putting the house on the market immediately and splitting the proceeds down the middle as neither of us want to live in it.
Do let me know if there's any particular little memento of Dad's you'd like to have"

And the time at which you have that conversation is weeks ago.

This with bells on.

I think changing the locks may be illegal and his dds can break in, change the locks etc as nok. Why was that done? Strikes me as obviously they are going to sell off/remove assets. Kids need to gain entry ASAP.

As mentioned, whoever pays for the funeral can arrange what they like, I had to get my uncle to tell the funeral director to release my dad's ashes to me because mum didn't want them.

I know there's no will, but if anyone is making one, you should get your solicitor to register it so it can be accessed via the gov.uk site (also tells you when probate is granted, the dds need to push that through and get the siblings to butt out). Very helpful if there isn't a copy to hand.

Some very good advice ok this thread about inheritance and what to when people die intestate. I really feel for the daughters, if losing your dad isn’t enough! I hope you’re able to give them advice.

Irrelevant at this stage but I will weigh in on the funeral situation as I used to organise them (church not FD). Very normal for someone other than NOK to organise the funeral and I wouldn’t have thought twice about it.

@RH13 Assuming that they haven’t the money for a solicitor/don’t know where to start, The children urgently need to register what is known as a ‘caveat’ with the probate services. You’ve had links to the government website above. It costs very little. This prevents probate (and I think letters of administration) being granted until the situation is looked at carefully. They should also check with the Office of the public guardian (OPG) to see if any of the siblings had been granted Power of Attorney (may take a couple of weeks to get the answer) The title deed will not be able to be changed without bank involvement if there is an outstanding mortgage. Combined with the other recommended actions on here they could significantly reduce the cost of a solicitor’s involvement by going armed with the grunt work done. It is an offence to access a deceased person’s bank account once you know they have passed so knowing this information will be useful too.

So in order I would:

1. Nominate between them one sensible child to coordinate the children’s response to all of this
2. Register the caveat
3. Obtain the Death Certificate
4. Check the POA register with the OPG (note that having POA doesn’t provide cover for that person to be acting after a death but it is useful to know)
5. Download a copy of the Title from the land registry
6. register an alert on the property via the LR website
7. Go to the bank/building society registered as having an interest on the title deeds and explain the situation and get advice
8. Go to the deceased’s bank (if known) and explain your concerns surrounding the sibling activities. Check if an ‘executor’s account’ was created.
9. Check with HMRC that pensions/benefits etc have been stopped and they have been told of the deceased’s passing. If the siblings have been using money gained by not declaring a death in order to pay a mortgage etc they will take this very seriously indeed.
10. Get a locksmith to open up and change the locks and fit a hard-wired ring door bell or CCTV to the property with internal cameras.
11. Register any concerns about misappropriation of funds with Action Fraud (you can call the police who’ll be sympathetic but will tell you to do this anyway)
12. Ensure that the property is correctly insured to protect their assets.
13. establish with the funeral director who paid for the funeral and how (see point 8 above)
14. Once the cameras and locks are changed go to a solicitor and ensure a letter to the siblings is sent setting out the children’s position clearly.

In situations like this where actions are very suspicious it is best to consider next steps before they happen. Sadly it is a bit like a game of chess. One whiff of inheritance I’m afraid tends to send previously amicable relationships somewhat skew whiffed. Good luck to your cousins, it does sound pretty awful.

No will, kids are the NOK- I would be breaking in and changing the locks, not giving the neighbour a key and contacting a lawyer. I would not be handing over or allowing anything to be removed from the house/ installing CCTV/ ring door camera type thing high up ASAP. Siblings had no right to lock up their dads house arbitrarily unless there is some massive backstory and I would know t be passively putting up with that