Who's in charge of arranging the funeral - siblings or adult children?

[RH13]

Earlier this year a relative died of a sudden and short illness at 56. He was divorced with two adult children with whom he had a normal loving parent-child relationship.

He had 4 siblings, and they decided from the outset and without any debate that they were to be in charge of all the funeral planning, undertakers, wake, obituary, etc.

His siblings would not let his children have any role in deciding the funeral service, music, readings, photos, logistics, etc.

They also arranged the funeral on the wedding anniversary of one of his children. I don't think this was deliberate but it goes to show how little consultation they gave the children.

They have also had his locks changed and said the children can't access his house without their permission. And they have informed his neighbours, who have new spare keys, not to let the children in if they ask. I don't know if it's relevant or not, but no will has been found.

Is it normal for siblings to take precedence over adult children in these matters? (If so, then I guess it's YABU for this). I am fortunate not to have had to deal with this yet so my knowledge is lacking here. Wouldn't the children be next of kin in his case?

If it is planned to go ahead then speak to undertaker who I think would refuse to go ahead against the NOK's wishes.

It's worth remembering there is no legal definition of next of kin.

It's also worth remembering that the devil is in the detail. If there was a will for example naming the siblings as executors then that would completely turn the situation on its head. Also for example who actually owned the house.

Situations from a distance can appear strange until you know all the facts.

The OP and/or the daughters can do a Land Registry search themselves very quickly and cheaply to establish who owns the house. And who the mortgagee is.

By default it's the eldest child that is the chief mourner aka responsible. In most (functional) families adult children (at least those out of education) would share responsibilities and involve the parent's siblings potentially delegating responsibility for certain aspects eg I'm organising one currently (occupational hazard!) and the sister is in charge of the reception eg caterers, table decorating etc. but the son has overall legal responsibility

I'm not sure if the world is becoming more lawless, or if family ties are just becoming looser, but the administration around a couple of deaths in the past four or five years have had concerning elements, possibly because so many people have given multiple carers keys.
Firstly, a friend was sole beneficiary of a neighbour's will, no prior inkling and assumed that the family who visited at most, once a year would be inheriting. The friend allowed access to the property (holder of a spare key) and portable items of value and the contents of the safe were taken. It was four or five weeks later when the solicitors named in the will had entered into some self-serving contracts around the estate that the sole beneficiary was told that she would inherit.
In the second case, a young widow, who had been through two painful executorships and had very specific arrangements that she wanted put in place, died unexpectedly. Her parents took legal advice before searching for the will that she had often mentioned - sadly to no avail - leaving the mother as sole beneficiary.
If you care about what happens after you're gone, leave copies of your correctly witnessed will (a recent legal case cost beneficiaries the estate because a bank employee aware of incorrect procedure approached the disinherited next of kin) with solicitors and friends. A very wealthy man I knew had two sets of copies of his will and early in each New Year, swapped them over, to check that his friends hadn't been tempted to break the seal.

It would only take a few minutes and £3 for an online search to confirm who owns the property.
https://www.gov.uk/search-property-information-land-registry

I had this very conversation this morning. I’m divorcing the father of my adult children and I know full well if he dies his sibling will be first on his doorstep. Will definitely try to get his property. I’m asking STBExH to sort his Will out to protect our DCs’ interests (we’re in our 60s so a real concern)

It keeps getting repeated that children are automatically next of kin. This has no legal status in law and it counts for nothing in this case. What matters is who inherits and with no will that's the children. A work colleague who had to go into hospital asked another colleague of ours if she could name her as next of kin whilst she was there. In other words the person the hospital was allowed to pass information on to. I could name my dog next of kin if I wanted to, but I don't think he'd understand how to arrange a funeral.

You certainly don't have to be a 'next of kin' to arrange a funeral (although it would help if the person was dead first). The legal situation in this revolves around who is due to inherit. The next of kin thing and funeral arrangments is muddying the waters. The important thing is that the siblings seem to be breaking the law if none of them are named as executor. With no will there's no executor and they should have got permission from the children to enter the property. It's a serious thing that they've changed the locks which probably won't end well for them.

I haven’t RTFT, so sorry if someone’s already suggested this…

but, if there’s an outstanding mortgage (and the siblings haven’t been paying it) the bank may end up taking possession. In which case they’ll sell it for comparative peanuts as all they care about is getting the outstanding mortgage back. The two DC may end up with next to nothing.

They REALLY need to get a grip on the situation quickly, particularly making sure that mortgage payments are kept up whilst they go through probate.

Is the daughters' mother ie the deceased's ex-wife around? I suppose it depends on the circumstances of the divorce and her relationship with the family but would she be able to support them?

This is outrageous! The adult children need to get legal advice straightaway!

I, like others, missed the "earlier this year".

If no will has been found then the OP's aunts and/or uncles should be facing legal action by the adult children. The children need to fill a form in here for a standing search https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/find-a-will-or-probate-document-form-pa1s and perhaps attend a registry to see if an application has already been made. If they see the property advertised for sale they need to notify the agent of a dispute. They can register for alerts about any property action here https://www.gov.uk/guidance/property-alert

@enchantedsquirrelwood > 'In the OP's case the children should register their interest at the land registry to prevent any attempts at sale' ...

I think you'd probably need the use of a solicitor to do that and I'm sure you'd need proof of entitlement to an ownership in the property, which it doesn't sound as if the children have yet.

You don't have to own the property and you don't need a solicitor to register for alerts.
https://propertyalert.landregistry.gov.uk/

Nor me. And who registered the Death/has the death certificate?

Siblings have told quite some lies here.

Sorry OP to piggyback onto your thread but it's made me think of something i've never thought of before.

My biological father is still alive but estranged (I was born essentially out of a ONS and he wanted nought to do with me). He has no other kids or wife. I am close with the rest of his family. Would it be my responsibility to organise the funeral/deal with his affairs (I don't even know where he lives) - I know his siblings would happily deal with it as they've been supporting him with his declining health?

First they absoloutly cannot change the locks of the deceased estate... without a will or a marriage then the estate automatically defaults to the next of kin which is to be split between biological and/or legally adopted children. Siblings have zero claim to it.

Second with the funeral Im not sure of the answer but went through this myself.

There was 2 sibling. One who was nothing but helpful and respectful and a godsend. The other who went out of their way to create drama, demand their own way, throw lots of threats and disrespect us and my mam. The latter is now estranged from me, they showed just how selfish they are.

The children need to get the banks accounts frozen need acces to the house either by breaking in or locksmith.

The brother and sisters need to butt out

This.

With my mams passing me and my aunt where completely overridden time and time again by the rest of the 'male' family. Even though my aunt was the executor in the will and I was the next of kin.

The family basically split down a gender line... its not something I ever expected.

Wow some people are unbelievable.
How dare they do this to your cousins?
Legal advice - immediately

The siblings are so ripping the kids off here. Your friend need legal advice now, and the house needs securing immediately.

how fucking dare they do this to the daughters! It’s obscene!

Assuming he wasn’t married his kids are classed as the next of kin so it would be his children's responsibility.

Adult DC.

The children are next of kin not the siblings, they should see a solicitor quick,

No @Jamjarcandlestick you have no legal obligation to arrange anything
The local authority are obliged to carry it out on public health grounds if his family cant

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/public-health-funerals-good-practice-guidance/public-health-funerals-good-practice-guidance

Even if he has assets and a will naming you as executor you can decide not to act or engage in anyway.