Who's in charge of arranging the funeral - siblings or adult children?

[RH13]

Earlier this year a relative died of a sudden and short illness at 56. He was divorced with two adult children with whom he had a normal loving parent-child relationship.

He had 4 siblings, and they decided from the outset and without any debate that they were to be in charge of all the funeral planning, undertakers, wake, obituary, etc.

His siblings would not let his children have any role in deciding the funeral service, music, readings, photos, logistics, etc.

They also arranged the funeral on the wedding anniversary of one of his children. I don't think this was deliberate but it goes to show how little consultation they gave the children.

They have also had his locks changed and said the children can't access his house without their permission. And they have informed his neighbours, who have new spare keys, not to let the children in if they ask. I don't know if it's relevant or not, but no will has been found.

Is it normal for siblings to take precedence over adult children in these matters? (If so, then I guess it's YABU for this). I am fortunate not to have had to deal with this yet so my knowledge is lacking here. Wouldn't the children be next of kin in his case?

This. If there is a will then the Executor is responsible for organising the funeral and ensuring the Will is properly executed.

If the Will names one or more of the Siblings as Executor and none of the children are named, then on the face of it, they are correct in locking the house up until things have been settled

If not, then in the absence of a Spouse or Civil partner children are usually the next-of -kin. Siblings are further down the generally accepted order of next of kin

I would suggest that the adult children take legal advice, if they can't get a copy of a will. If there is no Will then someone can apply to be allowed to administer the Estate, so they really need to find out what the position is

The siblings are acting out with their legal remit in every way here. His kids are his next of kin and really do need to step up and take charge.

They need to do this right now. Before something is put in place that would cost a fortune in time and money to reverse.

They need to get in the house. I don't think a locksmith would break in for them as they can't prove ownership at the mo, so even if they have to break a window to get in, do that and check nothings been taken. Then get the window fixed and fit their own locks. Then advise the siblings that they are taking over dealing with their fathers estate and probate, as next of kin, and they will advise if there is anything to come to the siblings once it's all sorted. Siblings not to access the property.

Who has the death certificate? They need a copy of that if they don't have one, then they can start dealing with the probate business, including urgently contacting banks etc. In fact I'd be flagging with banks etc while they wait for a copy.

This is bizarre. Of course the adult children are next of kin and are the ones who should organise the funeral. How are the siblings planning on paying for this funeral? Out of the proceeds of the estate?

The adult children need see a solicitor immediately and start the process to take out letters of administration. I I were them, I would change the locks and tell their deranged aunts and uncles that they will be accessing their father's house whenever they want as next of kin and those entitled to inherit on intestacy.

The executor of the will has authority over the funeral arrangements.

If there is no will, then it follows interstate and children trump siblings.

I suggest you show the siblings the links above which demonstrate just how wrong they are, and suggest they hand over the keys to the adult children as soon as possible, together with making abject apologies.

I would have been utterly outraged if my parents' siblings had done this.

Well they're wrong @RH13. And locking the daughters out of a house that belongs to them (unless anyone can prove otherwise, or a will turns up) is almost certainly illegal. The daughters need to get a lawyer on this immediately – if it were me I'd probably put the wind up one of the neighbours and point out that by withholding a key they could also be charged.

Come on OP, you can't seriously think this is all an innocent mistake and your cousins just don't realise who takes precedence?

Surely everyone knows the children are next of kin and have the legal rights and responsibilities that would entail.

Why did they change the locks and bar access to the kids? What's the innocent explanation for that?

I'm afraid your cousins are dickheads. You should be supporting the daughters in this.

It would normally be the next of kin (spouse first, and then any children), or whoever had a LPA, or who the executor of the will might be (if there is a will; if not who would be granted administration of their estate, which would normally be the children).
For exampe if you are in the UK, and a person died intestate, then their estate goes (in percentages and in order), to their spouse first, and then children, before any other relatives.
The children (either jointly, or the eldest), may have to get a court order to access the house.

It sounds like you are a voice of reason in this situation. The grownup “children” are lucky to have you. Perhaps some more gentle comments to this man about how they must feel being locked out of their parents’ home would help him see reason.

They’ve changed the locks and are denying access to the children? But the house and its contents very likely belong to the children!

I’d be outraged.

If there is no will surely the house & anything else are "in limbo" & no one has a right to remove/sell anything or even enter the property?

I would gain entry immediately and start sleeping there, take charge of the funeral and certainly probate - the key issue as said above is whether there is a will.

No will has been found

In that case, his children are his next of kin and NOT his siblings. His siblings have no right to be doing any of this stuff. If there are no prior legal arrangements in place, the hierarchy of next of kin goes:

1. Spouse or civil partner
2. Children
3. Parents
4. Siblings

So if the deceased had no husband or wife then the children are next of kin. The siblings should NOT be organising the funeral (which I assume is being paid for out the deceased's estate, which is money that belongs to the children) and they should absolutely NOT be changing the locks or refusing access to the house. The house doesn't belong to them. If there is no will specifying otherwise, it belongs to the children.

The children need to speak to a solicitor immediately.

They need to get (or at least threaten) an injunction asap. The children are the next of kin and inherit everything in the absence of a will. The deceased's siblings do not have rights over the deceased's body. The funeral arrangements need to stop, and make it clear that any money expended on this should not be coming out of the deceased's estate. The keys to the property need to be surrendered to the daughters, and any assets, bank cards, passports or other paperwork removed returned immediately. This is completely batshit. Are you family normally like this?

I would be livid if my siblings done that on my children! I understand them wanting to help and even be involved in the funeral but not take over. What is their reason for keeping them out of his house? They need put in their place. The kids don’t need a solicitor as they are in the right, it’s the siblings who do if they want to argue it. I hope the kids stand up to them.

The simple fact that the siblings changed the locks and denied access to the property, with no legal authority, to the deceased daughter’s shows very clearly that they did this for nefarious purposes! They’ve probably taken paperwork relating to financials already.

That is outrageous.

Are these 4 separate siblings or 2 siblings and their spouses? It sounds so odd. Did they care for him, feel that the DDs didn’t bother with him? Even so it’s no excuse.

I wouldn’t involve solicitors just yet as I wouldn’t want the Dad’s hard earned money to be eaten up in legal fees (I’m sure he wouldn’t want that) but the DDs should definitely take a few days to go and change the locks to get access to the property and sort through papers informing the relevant organisations that they are NOK (they have birth certificates proving they are his children?). Move into the house for a bit? Inform the siblings in writing that they have no legal rights to the estate and they are no longer to have any involvement in any way moving forwards.

If the siblings have already taken any money out of bank accounts or falsely claimed they are beneficiaries, then take legal action to get it back.

They need to move fast.

Not normal at all. Without a will the children will inherit snot the siblings. I'd be taking legal advice mid I was one of the children.

The children need to get legal advice now on how to stop the disposal of assets, gaining access to the house and probate. Sounds the the siblings want to steal the inheritance.

They should also speak to the funeral directors as it's the next of kin who would be giving the okay for burial/cremation.

Children are legally next of kin unless a power of attorney has been issued or there is a will naming an executor.
If the house is in the name of the siblings they could control access but not deny property or monies....if there is no will nobody can access it until a legal process is followed.
The children could have gone to the undertaker and stopped the funeral process taking it over and making their own plans including paying for the funeral and claiming it back from the estate.

They need to get legal advice asap.

The siblings have no standing. Have they applied for probate?

Who had the death certificate and registered the death?

This is all totally arse about tit. I can see no innocent explanation for what the siblings have don, especially the changing of the locks and barring them from the house.

The "children" need to appoint their own solicitor here, and fast!

The solicitor can explain authoritatively to all involved how the laws of intestacy work and warn the siblings off. They will go through due process properly and apply for probate, which I would bet the siblings haven't done.

The op says they are adults that legally makes them responsible and next of kin

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/family/death-and-wills/who-can-inherit-if-there-is-no-will-the-rules-of-intestacy/#:~:text=Children%20%2D%20if%20there%20is%20no,be%20divided%20equally%20between%20them.

The kids - but people do get odd ideas about inheritance.

I know my MIL thought despite wills as eldest child she get everything - no idea why as other deaths in family prior that hadn't been case she couldn't explain why either - it was in end split between her and sibling which TBf MIL was fine with.

I went through a similar situation when my dad died. My dad was an alcoholic who died in his mid 50's when I was at uni. His siblings closed ranks and tried extremely hard to get their hands on what little money my dad had left. They failed an eventually had to concede that, as there as no will, me and DB were next of kin. The really pointless bit of it was, they owned the house that he lived in anyway so they were always going to have that back. DB and I eventually inherited a couple of thousand pounds each, which the siblings still begrudged. OP tell the children to get themselves to a solicitor asap, I imagine the siblings are just chancing their arms and will stop when met with a legal response.