Page 10 | Mother of Star Hobson does not deserve sympathy

pumpkinspice87 · 2023-08-13T06:14:04+00:00

[[https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12385875/amp/Family-murdered-Star-Hobson-looking-forward-welcoming-home-mother-allowed-toddler-die-hands-girlfriend-say-victim-tragedy.html https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12385875/amp/Family-murdered-Star-Hobson-looking-forward-welcoming-home-mother-allowed-toddler-die-hands-girlfriend-say-victim-tragedy.html]] Am I being unreasonable to be absolutely sickened by this article? I get that this man is traumatised by what happened to his family, but how could anyone be so blinded as to see Star's mother as some sort of innocent victim? She was a cruel and neglectful mother who was too infatuated with her new partner to protect her baby daughter. Yes, I know she has a low IQ and learning difficulties. However, to use this as a constant excuse is an absolute insult to the many, many people in this country with learning difficulties (many of whom are parents) who would never, ever think it is acceptable to stand by and watch whilst their child is horrifically abused.

Honestlyy · 14/08/2023 07:41

Overthinkingperhaps · 13/08/2023 23:34

I absolutely don't buy that Frankie was a victim.
Yes she had an extremely low IQ but she wasn't just witness to the abuse. She abused too.
I have a relative with a very similar IQ to Frankie.
She lives independently (with family close by, helping her with things like making appts)
She's very childlike and probably easily led.

However, I 100% guarantee she would not sit back and watch abuse. Or inflict abuse.
She knows right from wrong.

I suspect Frankie did too.

That poor baby.

But what if your relative got involved with an older, cleverer, violent and manipulative person? Frankie was apparently afraid of Savannah. She lived near loving and responsible relations too.

I'm not sticking up for her. I think it's right that she was imprisoned but people with normal IQs get involved with and manipulated by abusers. What hope does a person with an IQ of 70 have?

kinkii · 14/08/2023 09:04

I'm not sticking up for her. I think it's right that she was imprisoned but people with normal IQs get involved with and manipulated by abusers. What hope does a person with an IQ of 70 have?

I don't know, I think people would be more sympathetic if she wasn't an active participant in the abuse and actively tried to cover it up. Because that shows she does have some knowledge of right and wrong

It's messed up. Anyone who can apparently not know that punching a baby in the face is bad is seriously unsuitable to have a child. A 6 year old would not even think that's ok, much less join in

Elizadoloads · 14/08/2023 09:53

Where do we draw the line though.
James Bulger for example was murdered by 10 year olds. They were still imprisoned (and in my opinion still should be)

Another well documented case was Nicholas Godejohn and Gypsey Rose, He had a similar iq to Frankie Smith but still got life imprisonment.

Someone else mentioned Baby P murder was carried out again by someone with severe learning disabilities.

You could argue in all of these cases that with the right support none of these people would have gone on to abuse and murder but they did. They carried out unforgivable crimes and have no pay for them.

DinoDough · 14/08/2023 09:56

Elizadoloads · 14/08/2023 09:53

Where do we draw the line though.
James Bulger for example was murdered by 10 year olds. They were still imprisoned (and in my opinion still should be)

Another well documented case was Nicholas Godejohn and Gypsey Rose, He had a similar iq to Frankie Smith but still got life imprisonment.

Someone else mentioned Baby P murder was carried out again by someone with severe learning disabilities.

You could argue in all of these cases that with the right support none of these people would have gone on to abuse and murder but they did. They carried out unforgivable crimes and have no pay for them.

This is a really interesting point.

Lemieux7 · 14/08/2023 11:01

I don't agree that a 10 year old should be imprisoned for life and the key thrown away- clearly one of them was successfully rehabilitated.

Lemieux7 · 14/08/2023 11:03

Someone else mentioned Baby P murder was carried out again by someone with severe learning disabilities.

Someone who will commit murder is a danger to society though.

Frankie didn't murder her daughter - she failed to protect her from a murderer. It is clearly not the same thing.

If FS had never met Savannah Brockhill, Star would still be alive today.

kinkii · 14/08/2023 11:16

Lemieux7 · 14/08/2023 11:03

Someone else mentioned Baby P murder was carried out again by someone with severe learning disabilities.

Someone who will commit murder is a danger to society though.

Frankie didn't murder her daughter - she failed to protect her from a murderer. It is clearly not the same thing.

If FS had never met Savannah Brockhill, Star would still be alive today.

No prison time for Frankie then? Prison is about punishment too, not just danger to the public. You can't abuse a baby and allow her to be murdered, with no consequence

midlander79 · 14/08/2023 12:18

@HmmOk

I DEFINITELY knew the permanence of death long before the age of 8-I had become terrified of it at around the age of 4 and slowly worked my way through the feelings but there are so many nuances to learning levels and maturity, and my IQ is much higher than average (not a brag, I am also incredibly stupid in many, many ways)!

I think she was brainwashed by Brockhill, scared of her, possibly thought because Brockhill was so much more mature and 'together' (in Frankie's eyes) she knew best. I also think she probably 'knew' it wasn't but didn't value her own opinions or trust her own morals and value judgments-as you've said, a result of a not-great childhood. Was Frankie even allowed to be her own person, did people think they'd done right by her by not allowing her to be? Who knows.

IQ is a measure of intelligence in some but not all ways. You can have a low IQ and be empathic or a high IQ and not understand unrelated things. I know people who might be labelled 'Thick' who have an emotional range higher than mine and other much more 'intelligent' people. As others have said, Frankie could be manipulative, secretive-she has held her own in arguments with Brockhill. As awful, awful as this case is, the nature of the humans involved does cause fascination in many of us, clearly. Frankie's IQ has become an object of fascination.

midlander79 · 14/08/2023 12:20

Also @HmmOk I am sorry for your loss.

Related-your stating about your not being able to accept that 'this is it' with regard to your own grief, I don't think that's quite the same thing. Denial is a stage of grief, it doesn't mean that you don't know that once someone has gone they're gone, emotions and logic don't always correlate.

Lemieux7 · 14/08/2023 12:42

No prison time for Frankie then? Prison is about punishment too, not just danger to the public. You can't abuse a baby and allow her to be murdered, with no consequence

Where did I say she shouldn't get prison time?

kinkii · 14/08/2023 12:50

Lemieux7 · 14/08/2023 12:42

No prison time for Frankie then? Prison is about punishment too, not just danger to the public. You can't abuse a baby and allow her to be murdered, with no consequence

Where did I say she shouldn't get prison time?

She's not a danger to society, you mentioned

Lemieux7 · 14/08/2023 13:09

No, I don't think she is a danger to society.

JanieEyre · 14/08/2023 15:35

girlfriend44 · 13/08/2023 12:17

It would be a deterrent to others that's what. As well as sending out a message we don't tolerate adults killing children.

We are seeing more and more of this type of behaviour and sentences are so low.

I doubt you would say this if it was your own child.

These people are lucky they aren't hanged. Seeing whole life sentences is the next best thing.

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It blatantly wouldn't be a deterrent. If you are a person with an IQ of 70 completely under the control of your psychopathic, manipulative girlfriend, you won't even know about another woman in a similar position who is in prison all her life. If you do find out about it, you will be incredibly easy to manipulate into believing it can't happen to you. It is no deterrent at all.

What keeps children safe is offering the right support to people in this situation and ensuring they get it. Why do you apparently discount that option?

JanieEyre · 14/08/2023 15:38

loveandpoprockz · 13/08/2023 12:32

If it stops another baby suffering the same fate then it’s well worth the cost.

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For the reasons I've given, it's obvious it wouldn't stop another baby from suffering the same fate.

Elizadoloads · 14/08/2023 15:53

Lemieux7 · 14/08/2023 11:01

I don't agree that a 10 year old should be imprisoned for life and the key thrown away- clearly one of them was successfully rehabilitated.

Rehabilitated or not there's no undoing the horrific crime they committed. From what I've read both children should have been taken into care at birth instead they were dragged up and left to roam the streets. How that turned into murdering a two year old I don't know. Nature or Nurture. I doubt it makes much of a difference to James Bulgers family.
As for baby P nobody knows who was to blame for his Murder they all blamed each other and it's why they got such low sentences.. some one killed him though and while others watched on and ignored it.. just like Frankie Smith. Like I said it's unforgivable. I don't think she deserves her freedom but that's not up to me. I hope she realises the suffering she allowed her daughter to endure and enflict herself makes her a monster.

JanieEyre · 14/08/2023 15:53

kinkii · 13/08/2023 15:52

Where do you draw the line though? That’s my problem with sterilisation and eugenics

This one killed her child (or allowed it to happen) and actively abused a baby. She's not just learning disabled! That's a pretty good line to draw

This has fuck all to do with disability and everything to do with abuse

You have low intellectual capability and have a baby? Either accept support from SS + family or baby is removed

You kill a baby? You go to prison and a condition go release is long term contraception/sterilisation and you can never parent again. That goes for anyone of any intellectual level

Where is the eugenics here?

The problem here was that support from SS wasn't being offered. If it had been, it's reasonable to assume the abuse would have been discovered much sooner.

Frankie didn't kill the child but she did allow it to happen and she has rightly been punished for that. Where people suggest she actively colluded with keeping SS etc away, it seems clear that much of that was on the girlfriend's instructions and indeed some of it may well have been the girlfriend using Frankie's phone to text.

Our neighbour's son has an IQ of 70 and is in sheltered accommodation with quite a lot of independence. He didn't have an abusive childhood and is a nice lad, but I still shudder to think what would happen if he came under the spell of a manipulative, controlling psychopath like Savannah, because he would be very easily influenced, and would simply have no clue how to begin to save himself or look after someone else.

JanieEyre · 14/08/2023 16:00

Elizadoloads · 14/08/2023 09:53

Where do we draw the line though.
James Bulger for example was murdered by 10 year olds. They were still imprisoned (and in my opinion still should be)

Another well documented case was Nicholas Godejohn and Gypsey Rose, He had a similar iq to Frankie Smith but still got life imprisonment.

Someone else mentioned Baby P murder was carried out again by someone with severe learning disabilities.

You could argue in all of these cases that with the right support none of these people would have gone on to abuse and murder but they did. They carried out unforgivable crimes and have no pay for them.

The Godejohn case happened in the US, and he was convicted of actively committing homicide - a very different charge. It's not really comparable.

The killers in the Bulger case weren't imprisoned, but were of course held in custody. Again, they actively committed homicide, and neither had a particularly low IQ, so again it's not comparable.

Elizadoloads · 14/08/2023 16:35

Regardless of Iq I don't believe Frankie deserves any sympathy. She sat back and watched her baby daughter die in horrific pain, she at times abused her daughter herself, she didn't try and get help she covered up and facilitated her baby's death. Unforgivable and my sympathy lies solely with Star. I think Frankie is a disgusting excuse for a human being and I'd rather these people didn't exist in society but if they have to then that should be behind bars.
I also hope that footage of Star haunts her for the rest of her miserable life.
I'm not judging her great grandfather for taking her in, he's more forgiving than I could ever be.

FiveOClockWorld · 14/08/2023 17:57

Lemieux7 · 14/08/2023 11:01

I don't agree that a 10 year old should be imprisoned for life and the key thrown away- clearly one of them was successfully rehabilitated.

Yes. I find it interesting that the one which was successfully rehabilitated was the boy with the worst background of the two of them, lots of abuse and dysfunction. I also think of Mary Bell who came from a background like that and went on to kill two children and attempt to strangle a third and yet has been rehabilitated back into society very successfully. It can happen.

FiveOClockWorld · 14/08/2023 18:04

JanieEyre · 14/08/2023 15:53

The problem here was that support from SS wasn't being offered. If it had been, it's reasonable to assume the abuse would have been discovered much sooner.

Frankie didn't kill the child but she did allow it to happen and she has rightly been punished for that. Where people suggest she actively colluded with keeping SS etc away, it seems clear that much of that was on the girlfriend's instructions and indeed some of it may well have been the girlfriend using Frankie's phone to text.

Our neighbour's son has an IQ of 70 and is in sheltered accommodation with quite a lot of independence. He didn't have an abusive childhood and is a nice lad, but I still shudder to think what would happen if he came under the spell of a manipulative, controlling psychopath like Savannah, because he would be very easily influenced, and would simply have no clue how to begin to save himself or look after someone else.

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Yes, it has been said that many people have sociopathic tendencies (possibly Frankie had this as well as low IQ) but a dysfunctional childhood or being easily led by another sociopathic person could be the trigger for them behaving in a criminal fashion. Some very successful people from good educational backgrounds and childhoods where they were taught right from wrong actually can score highly on the Hare checklist for sociopathy; they have those innate traits but they have no need to turn to crime or become antisocial. Nurture makes a huge difference.

RavenhairedRachel · 14/08/2023 18:04

I hope they both get the same treatment in jail as that poor child and if they are ever released should live in fear. They're disgusting.

CantFindMyMarbles · 14/08/2023 18:05

I read all the court transcripts as it was happening.
she knew what she did. You don’t get rehabilitated from willingly neglecting your child for such an extensive period of time. She’ll be reminded every day by those around her of what an awful person she is.

lindyloo57 · 14/08/2023 18:36

So so sad why do the social services always believe the abuser, its about time the law is tightened

Blueink · 14/08/2023 18:36

I don’t understand how the mother was allowed to keep her child after details of the attacks were disclosed and the evidence of bruising to her face seen.

Very sad and especially as looking at the timeline, her death should have been prevented.

It doesn’t seem the child’s mother had much capacity to look after her, having said that the courts obviously found her culpable.

I haven’t voted either way OP.

Startyabastard · 14/08/2023 18:55

Where can the court transcripts be found/ deeper information about the case, such as text messages? thanks