Tradwives

[babysharkdoodoodedoodedoo]

Whilst mindlessly scrolling through Instagram the other day, a video came up on my feed (whatever that section is called where they post suggested videos) of a ‘tradwife’ - an American woman (she must have been no older than 24) who was actively promoting a traditional married lifestyle - a man as provider, woman as homemaker, with the man as the ‘leader’ of the family and the wife submitting to her husband’s leadership. She posts videos of herself cooking and cleaning and dressing up for her husband every day, and regularly speaks about how she has certain rules for herself to keep herself in her place, like not going out after dark without her husband, asking her husbands permission before she does things. I got the impression that she likes this lifestyle and has chosen it and he goes along with it - she’s always talking about how it was her lifelong dream to live like this. She’s even started dressing in retro housewife outfits - like a sort of 1950s vibe. Don’t get me wrong, she looks amazing and seems very happy. I was intrigued about this movement and when I Googled it, it seems that this is a growing movement with lots of people posting about it and promoting the lifestyle. I was so surprised as I’ve never really met anyone like this. I was wondering if anyone on Mumsnet is a part of this movement (or even just follows this lifestyle/holds these beliefs in private). No reason really other than curiosity!

Stepford. This is a male fantasy that she is both accommodating and monetising. It's massively unhealthy for women. Don't indulge it.

Surely the point of feminism is to allow women the freedom to make their own choices in life? The same as men have choices in life? Some men don’t vote but I don’t see anyone ever shouting at them about how long it was fought for all men to be equal enough to vote. Yet women are always clobbered with the argument that the suffragettes fought and died for their right to vote (even though Emmeline Pankhurst actually didn’t want working class women to get the vote but that’s an argument for another day). Yes those women fought and died for us to have the right to bite, but it’s up to us if we choose to exercise that right. That’s what feminism should be. If a woman wants to wear heels, sell her body to men, or be a tradwife that should be her right, her right to choose, without being told that she doesn’t support other women. If that women is being forced into it or if she is trying to force others into it, that’s different. But as women we should ensure that other women have the right to choose. What’s going on with women in the world who are forced into this way of life is disgusting, but that’s an issue with men, not with other women who choose to live a subservient life. Is it a truly subservient life? No probably not, but they aren’t going around saying ‘I love it when my husband beats me into doing the cooking’ they’re saying ‘I love doing the cooking for my husband, it’s a relationship that we both feels works for us’.

Surely if they’re making money on social media then that is their job and they aren’t solely dependent on their husbands? It just isn’t real.

I was indoctrinated into a religion from birth and raised to be a submissive, stay at home parent. No importance was placed on my education as it was expected I would never work. “Career women” were sneered at by the religious community and portrayed as unattractive. Fortunately, I “escaped” in my twenties (having had two children at this point) and it wasn’t too late to get an education and employment. It has been much harder and I’m much poorer than I would have been had I not been forced into that lifestyle. I’m now a single parent and it feels so easy in comparison.

People raised in that sort of community generally don’t know much about social media and are controlled. The ones posting this fantasy life are not being forced into it.

Surely the point of feminism is to allow women the freedom to make their own choices in life? The same as men have choices in life?
The point of feminism is to dismantle female oppression, not to pay individual women on the back and validate every decision they make.

Part of being feminist is, or should be, a willingness to be open to the fact that most of your choices aren't made in a vacuum and that you yourself have been socialised in a world that views women as the second class sex.

The individualistic 'you do you' style of feminism does women a huge amount of harm because it conveniently steers the conversation away from the systemic issues and awkward questions.

Good post, @LolaSmiles.

This.

It annoys me that these weirdos are embracing 1950s style vintage dresses. I've been wearing that style of dress for ages and now ppl are going to think I'm a tradwife 😫

@vimtogirl Why did your daughter assume that when she was an adult YOU would babysit her kids allowing her to work? Why not her dad who would presumably also be retired by then?

You think she hasn’t internalised these roles but she clearly has.

And how does it matter if your husband taught you how to cook and clean? I learned many things from my husband and he has learned stuff from me.

You could be cooking and cleaning half the time, your husband half the time and both of you could have had jobs.

You are saying you become a SAHM to prove some point to your mother who didn’t teach you how to cook and clean? So you are trying to be the very best housewife you can be?!

Nothing Christian about this movement - on the contrary, it's a sort of fetish I think.

I know quite a few young Christian women who are SAHM's (at least until their youngest child starts school) and they don't fetishise their lifestyle in this way.

They certainly don't consider themselves to be part of any movement. They are just going what they consider best for their family at that point in their lives (while wearing normal clothes, not 50's housewife costumes!)

I haven’t said that they aren’t, of course society is still inherently misogynistic and we have a really really long way to go to escape that. But I still believe that women should be allowed to make their own choices in life. As I say, no one is attacking working class men’s choices. And the idea that you have to tell other women how to live and abide by your view of feminism isn’t actually giving them any kind of freedom. If a woman chooses to do Only Fans because it gives her the freedom to work her own hours and make her own money then I will always support her choice and freedom to do so. That doesn’t mean that I support the oppression of women, the general sexualisation of women and the ongoing issues that women around the world suffer from.

It’s not about ‘patting women on the back and validating every decision they make’. You don’t need to be patronising to make your point.

There have been women since the 1970s who have worked making money out of telling other women to be a housewife like them. It's nothing new.
This trad wife is not a trad wife. She works as an influencer and will be making money so is not at all dependent on her husband.
The fact she makes up rules for herself shows even more she is playing with it.

By the way even the 1950s housewife only stayed home until the children went to school. Once they went to school they either got a job, cared for elderly family, or became active in the church or with voluntary work. When I was a child housewives ran lots of local voluntary groups and activities. Very few women really stayed at home doing housework for the rest of their life.

And the idea that you have to tell other women how to live and abide by your view of feminism isn’t actually giving them any kind of freedom. If a woman chooses to do Only Fans because it gives her the freedom to work her own hours and make her own money then I will always support her choice and freedom to do so. That doesn’t mean that I support the oppression of women, the general sexualisation of women and the ongoing issues that women around the world suffer from.
It's not about telling other women how to live.
It's about challenging female oppression.

A liberal, individualistic version of feminism would see a woman on OnlyFans and say it's her choice, if she's happy doing it then who is anyone to say anything about it? It's an option she's chosen because she can work her own hours and it fits around the children. If you challenge it then you're telling her how to live her life, feminism should be about choice

Feminism that's actually interested in dismantling female oppression wouldn't take that view.
A feminist view would ask more probing questions about WHY society is structured in such a way that women are so devalued and viewed as sexual objects that women feel sex work is the only way they can make a living that fits around the family. A feminist would be drawing attention to the fact that sex work to fit around the family is a situation that largely affects women because society is structured to oppress women. A feminist would notice that sex work is often a choice made by women because their other options aren't very good. It's not usually a choice made by women who have a lot of options or money. A feminist might change their mind when sex work is being done by choice by a lot of women with financial resources behind them and lots of options, who are doing it because it's empowering and a better way to earn part time money than other methods that don't involve catering to male sexual demands.

A feminist might say it's awfully convenient that poor flexibility in the workplace, a systemic obsession with prioritising men's careers over women's, and pathetically low expectations of non-resident father's in their financial obligations to their children keeps a certain amount of women in a situation where sex work is their 'best option'.

The "but it's their choice" is a central to a modern brand of feminism that is thought terminating in my opinion.

A feminist can respect the individual woman as a woman, whilst also disagreeing that sex-work positivity is good for women as a class.

She doesn't "work" but she does make an independent income as an influencer while telling other women not to have an independent income... am I right?

She doesn't "work" but she does make an independent income as an influencer while telling other women not to have an independent income... am I right?
Nail on the head.

They monetise their LARPing and cosplay by selling a fetishised image of female submission.

Meanwhile there's lots of families, for their own reasons, who choose a traditional family set up because it works for them. Both people are happy with their allocation of family responsibilities, but there's none of this nauseating #TradWife role-playing.

Agree that it's fantasy. These women wouldn't like it if it were forced.

But also I think that it's a response to the uncertainty and poor quality of life that many face. It makes sense to couple up and raise your children together, pooling your assets and decision making. This is much harder to do if both people in the couple share all roles. You'll have to make decisions - whose career do we prioritise? Who takes the sick days with DC? Really, who wants to work all day long, do a commute home and then cook dinner for a family of 5? Modern life is so hard. When you disagree it is perhaps helpful to have a "head of the household" who is ultimately responsible for joint decisions. So it actually makes perfect sense to me, that you would want a system in place to split the labour so that one person earns the money and the other takes care of the household. These women have looked to the past and taken the good ol' worn classic patriarchical model as their model of how to split the labour.

In other words: if life weren't so very hard, nobody would do this.

I do agree. To a point. Women fought for the right to vote. That doesn’t mean women have to.

However, that’s not the same. This is like someone trying to push not voting as a superior choice that makes women happy, making money out of women not voting…..while voting themselves.

It would be influencing women to not vote whilst actually actively participating in elections.

That’s the difference. Do what you want. But don’t play act a submissive life style and talk about why it makes you so happy and it’s so fulfilling to submit to your husband when that’s not what you are doing. When you don’t actually do that. Don’t try and sell women a lifestyle that would possibly put them in an abusive situation. Which is what they are doing. They are telling women submitting brings them happiness and fulfilment. But it’s a lie. They don’t submit to their husbands, they do have financial independence.

But the women and young girls they are trying to influence may not be so lucky and end up with a man who actually does Believe his wife is his servant.

But you can apply a lot of that to the men who do Only Fans too.

And I think a large portion of modern feminism ISN’T truly about undoing female oppression. It’s about undoing the convenient female oppression. How often do we hear feminists shouting about bikini bodies and working rights for women, but still wearing clothes made in sweat shops by women being raped daily and taking home a pittance for their families. Those same feminists say very little about FGM and sex trafficking. Modern feminism is very conveniently about western women and more women shout off about things like trad wives instead of about the fact that there are women in the world who are forced into horrific lives. I’d rather be supporting Janice to get her boobs out on camera and earn more money than she can working in Waitrose and be sourcing ethically made clothing than shouting on Twitter about how disgusted I am about Page 3 whilst buying clothes from H&M and Levi’s that see women risking their lives And being raped just to take home a few pennies.

So I don’t agree with your views on modern feminism. For me it’s about all women having a right to choose what they do. I have the freedom to work, I have an amazing husband who wants to do most things 50/50 who treats me with respect. I have a mother who has encouraged me to fight for my own career and helped me build one. I’d still love to quit and by a stay at home mother and look after our home. Not because I’m oppressed but because I enjoy it. It’s my life and my right to choose. And thank fuck I am lucky enough to choose that, because there are millions of women who aren’t.

You don’t get to dictate feminism to me. By attempting to tell me how to be a feminist you’re exactly the same as the men who do it too. I can support women in the way I choose to, in the way I deem to be feminist - by supporting their choices and their right to choose. And I don’t care if you tell me I’m wrong or that ny feminism is wrong because it doesn’t match your view.

Meh... i guess it pretty cool when you don't have to work for a living. But you're screwed if something happens to your man.

Virtually no one makes much from Only fans. It is a MLM scheme. If you persuade someone to sign up you get a percentage of their first years earnings. So even if they make two thousand pounds that year, if you can persuade lots to sign up it is a nice earner. In reality only women who are already known in porn or are influencers, or who sign up others to only fans make much money.
But because it is a MLM people wanting you to sign up using their link exaggerate what you earn and how much work you have to do.

This influencer is saying watch my channel which makes me money, about how you can become a housewife and have no earnings.

When did this become a thing. I mean during the wars when the men were called in didnt the women run the country. Weren't they every thing in every job men had? Haven't women been working for decades now. What role from what time is it they are really taking on?

Besides as pp have said if they really wanted to live that live go somewhere where youn can't even receive medical treatment if a man doesn't agree who will then ditch you for whatever woman next takes his fancy. Even having a platform proves its all one big cos play. That would not he allowed under a real situation like this.

But hey free choice and all that. Thats ultimately what women fought for to have choices and rights so they can do what they want. But I do wonder how you keep conversation fresh when you've done fuck all but cook and clean all day.

I absoluely think a lot of tradwife content falls into fetish/kink. The clothes many of these influencers wear are tight-fitting busty sundresses or retro 50s pin-up wear that feel awfully costumey.

+1 for the person who mentioned Miriam Cates, she of 'women have jobs, not careers' while working...as an MP, hardly scanning groceries at Waitrose during school hours. Definitely Phyllis Schlafly territory -- live as I say, not as I do.

I think what they miss is that they exercise a choice to live this way.

That choice is available in the western democracy in which they live.

If they lived in Afghanistan it would not be a choice.

If they lived in the west in medieval times it would not be a choice.

That's the difference. They're not true "trad" wives - as there is the choice and if they wanted to live differently that would be perfectly possible with the society they live in.