Page 29 | Date got me to pay for expensive dinner - bin?

CrazyArmadilloLady · 03/08/2023 21:53

My God.

’Etiquette’ isn’t some exact science, or mathematical equation.

Some of the posters proclaiming ‘this is the way it’s done’ are deluded.

Etiquette is nuanced, and situation appropriate - and anyone who deems someone to be RIGHT or WRONG by way of some utterly binary determination, has no right to be pronouncing on etiquette.

Yes, it’s crass to discuss money. Quibbling over bills is not nice. But thanking someone for a ‘generous’ gift, or whatever, in an informal setting is absolutely fine. I have certainly thanked people for generous birthday gifts in the past - and if any of my friends had taken to their smelling salts, well, I wouldn’t even be friends with such socially awkward people.

And we ‘oldies’, who did all our courting pre-online dating, also have to realise this is a minefield over which we have little experience, and the rules are changing, whether we like it or not.

livethislifetoday · 03/08/2023 21:54

It's hilarious when you leave a thread for a few days and come back to an absolute shitshow! 🤣
What was the outcome OP? Surely a third date has been suggested, if not organised, by now?

CrazyArmadilloLady · 03/08/2023 21:57

Mamabear487 · 03/08/2023 13:43

I think the people who are saying it was miscommunication are wrong. If we was a proper gentleman he wouldn’t even have let you split the bill. 9 years with my fiancé and baby daddy I’ve never bought dinner

Sorry, but you can’t refer to a ‘gentleman’ and a <clears throat> ‘baby daddy’ in the same sentence. At least, not if you’re talking about the same man.

DrSbaitso · 03/08/2023 22:25

ilyana · 03/08/2023 21:11

I haven't been abusive in the slightest. You have repeatedly personally attacked me, brought in things I've said on other threads with the sole intent of hurting me, and been generally unpleasant, bullying and harassing.

You've also, multiple times, put words in my mouth and accused me of saying something I hadn't said at all. Nowhere did I talk about "passing a test". I don't give people tests. I said it didn't make sense to judge someone for not thanking someone for their generosity when etiquette dictates that best practice is to thank for the company and not reference the money at all. This is literally a thread about etiquette around paying for a meal.

Where have I "hurled insults"? Go on, I'm waiting.

Show quote history

Not sure why you're finding this so hard to grasp.

well done for revealing your mean spirited pettiness

we can all see what kind of person you are

You're just making yourself look pathetic

Anyone arguing against that is being goady.

You clearly have a massive insecurity about your lack of knowledge of etiquette.

you're being goady and arguing in bad faith

There was more, but I think I've made my point. The posts, complete with all their lectures about how to behave properly, are all still there for anyone who wants to see them.

DrSbaitso · 03/08/2023 22:28

Actually, I'll also add:

You're just goady, petty, and argumentative.

you look like a bully and proves my point that you have no class.

ilyana · 03/08/2023 22:32

CrazyArmadilloLady · 03/08/2023 21:53

My God.

’Etiquette’ isn’t some exact science, or mathematical equation.

Some of the posters proclaiming ‘this is the way it’s done’ are deluded.

Etiquette is nuanced, and situation appropriate - and anyone who deems someone to be RIGHT or WRONG by way of some utterly binary determination, has no right to be pronouncing on etiquette.

Yes, it’s crass to discuss money. Quibbling over bills is not nice. But thanking someone for a ‘generous’ gift, or whatever, in an informal setting is absolutely fine. I have certainly thanked people for generous birthday gifts in the past - and if any of my friends had taken to their smelling salts, well, I wouldn’t even be friends with such socially awkward people.

And we ‘oldies’, who did all our courting pre-online dating, also have to realise this is a minefield over which we have little experience, and the rules are changing, whether we like it or not.

The point is that nobody should be judged for not saying something like "thank you for the generosity" or begging to pay. In many cultures, it's just not done, and it isn't done among many people in the UK either. I never say it, and it doesn't mean I'm rude. Quite the contrary - I was brought up to see it as crass and told to just say thank you for the company/evening. Who's to say OP's fella wasn't taught the same? That's my point.

A lot of the replies who are aghast that he 'let' her pay are coming from people who clearly think £110 is a lot of money. Some of us have been trying to make the point that if £110 isn't a lot of money to you, you wouldn't really see the issue with letting someone pay it, especially if you were intending to get them back next time with a similarly priced meal/drinks. It's a pretty standard cost for a pub meal and a few drinks in London, contrary to what many of you seem to think.

But hey, God forbid you'd try to offer an alternative point of view to the hive mind, in a thread where someone has asked for opinions. Who'd do that, eh?

category12 · 03/08/2023 22:39

Of course you can judge someone's behaviour if it doesn't fit with your own values. You're doing it. You think it's poor etiquette to say it, and make it sound like you look down on people who do.

I think it's poor manners not to say it, and would think you rude.

We're both judging each other's manners.

CrazyArmadilloLady · 03/08/2023 22:50

ilyana · 03/08/2023 22:32

The point is that nobody should be judged for not saying something like "thank you for the generosity" or begging to pay. In many cultures, it's just not done, and it isn't done among many people in the UK either. I never say it, and it doesn't mean I'm rude. Quite the contrary - I was brought up to see it as crass and told to just say thank you for the company/evening. Who's to say OP's fella wasn't taught the same? That's my point.

A lot of the replies who are aghast that he 'let' her pay are coming from people who clearly think £110 is a lot of money. Some of us have been trying to make the point that if £110 isn't a lot of money to you, you wouldn't really see the issue with letting someone pay it, especially if you were intending to get them back next time with a similarly priced meal/drinks. It's a pretty standard cost for a pub meal and a few drinks in London, contrary to what many of you seem to think.

But hey, God forbid you'd try to offer an alternative point of view to the hive mind, in a thread where someone has asked for opinions. Who'd do that, eh?

Show quote history

You can offer an alternative viewpoint! What are you talking about?

You can also expect it to be challenged if people disagree - just as you are disagreeing with the OP and challenging her.

This thread has hardly been a ‘hive mind’.

And I posted upthread querying the people who think £110 is a lot - I asked people to say what they thought would be a reasonable price for cocktails (plural), large glasses of wine (plural), steak and dessert. £110 is at least what I’d expect to pay for all of that.

My issue is with people declaring what is and isn’t acceptable etiquette - as if it’s a black and white set of rules. It’s not.

DrSbaitso · 03/08/2023 22:57

@ilyana

Ok. When I look at your posts in the context of a very hurt person, they're still pretty awful but they're perhaps more understandable.

I did not mention the other conversations in order to hurt you, and I apologise a second time if it came across that way.

We were discussing etiquette, and you were telling us, in quite forceful terms, how very correct your way is and how crass and classless the alternative is. I thought "but you've talked on here recently about people you're close to being shits to you. Is that etiquette working if it's not actually encouraging decent behaviour?"

Perhaps I should have kept the thought in my head, but I thought it was a valid question. It was the etiquette that I was questioning, not you. It didn't occur to me that you would think I was trying to upset you, because why on earth would I want to do that? We've not had any cross words before today. And like I said, I was thinking that it was the etiquette that sounded faulty, not you.

Anyway, I don't think there's anything left to gain from this and it's not my intention to cause distress, so I'll leave it there.

Tootsmarbles · 03/08/2023 23:41

this thread may be my final straw 😂😭 all the pick me women leaping to this mediocre man’s defence, or I think there may be quite a few men on here 👀 “this is what equality looks like” “what happened to strong independent women” goady type bullshit is unbelievable.

this man has let OP research, plan, book the only two dates they’ve been on. She “chose an expensive place” ffs he’s an adult he could’ve looked up the prices online when she told him the place and if it was too expensive, could’ve suggested elsewhere. But no, he left the mental load to the woman which is the first red flag. It had to be near his work, near his station, nothing of inconvenience to him. 2nd red flag. And if he was thinking she’s a gold digger or chose an expensive place and he was worried about footing the bill then HE shouldn’t have ordered a cocktail, 2 LARGE wines, a steak and a dessert. When she “offered” to pay (which she actually DIDN’T) this man thought he’d won a watch and didn’t even offer to split, knowing full well he’d paid a measly £16 for a sandwich the previous date. Men ARE NOT STUPID they know exactly what they’re doing, I’d bet money that he’s not that interested or doesn’t feel it’s worth it to pay a lot if he doesn’t see himself getting a return (sex) anytime soon.

this third date may happen but OP will be expected to organise it, choose the venue, etc (he’ll act casual, “I’m not fussed, you choose” cos they’re lazy like that and not actually that interested) and he’ll maybe pay at best or will go halves “to be equal” 🙄 OP will be kicking herself weeks, months, years down the line cursing the MN pick mes for this terrible advice 😂

and I’ve not even started on the fact that men and women when dating are NOT playing on an even field. Women are a far more valuable resource to men, than men are to women. And that is a fact, not open for debate. Men tell us that themselves. Only fans, escorts, “mail order” brides, passport bros, SWS, strip clubs, trafficking of girls and women. Men plough huge amounts of money, time and energy pursuing women, for good reason; it’s to their benefit.

RantyAnty · 04/08/2023 03:04

Jonesjonsy · 01/08/2023 15:57

Met a guy online. First date, walk in the countryside near to where he lived. Seemed a really nice guy with great interests and gorgeous dog! Stopped at a cafe and had sandwich lunch about £8 each, no alcohol or anything. Very kindly he offered to pay and I accepted. no kiss or anything like that.

Second date he said he was going to be working near me and would I like to do something. I offered to book a pub dinner near to where he would clock off. Again it went well I thought, but conscious on seeing the prices on the menu I knew I wouldn’t want him to pay for me particularly as he had bought me the sandwich. At the end of the meal when he asked for the bill, I said you paid last time so I don’t want you paying again. He misconstrued this as me saying I would settle the whole thing (what I meant was we just had split it) and I guess I was so flummoxed that this had happened I just paid especially since the waitress was kind of hovering over us… I was embarrassed to talk about it. Bill was £110!

I guess I just wonder if this is a major red flag. I don’t know him well enough to determine and honestly it’s put me off I don’t think I want to meet up again. Yes I can afford it as I’ve worked really hard to build up my own business. I didn’t tell about money at all and am not flashy but I did talk about what I do and maybe he just made a assumption? AIBU?

Well said.
Dick is not valuable. Never has been. Never will be.
It's more than plentiful and of low value.

There is nothing equal between men and women

The equal men only like the parts that benefit them.

Janieforever · 04/08/2023 07:22

RantyAnty · 04/08/2023 03:04

Well said.
Dick is not valuable. Never has been. Never will be.
It's more than plentiful and of low value.

There is nothing equal between men and women

The equal men only like the parts that benefit them.

Show quote history

God if a man said that about a woman there would be an outcry. Reducing a humans value to their genitalia.

PumpkinsAndCoconuts · 04/08/2023 07:48

Janieforever · 04/08/2023 07:22

God if a man said that about a woman there would be an outcry. Reducing a humans value to their genitalia.

Show quote history

tbh, I don’t think the “if a man said that” spiel should even be necessary here.

that comment is so reductive, generalising and just completely hateful…

Tootsmarbles · 04/08/2023 08:22

Oh don’t worry men say that, and much much worse, about women every day and their actions reflect their contempt and hatred for women. The men are ok don’t you worry about them. I mean actually they’re not ok but it’s their own doing so I have zero sympathy for them.

Choux · 04/08/2023 08:47

What was the outcome OP? Surely a third date has been suggested, if not organised, by now?

If he was very keen a third date suggestion and timing might have been made during the second date. 'Oh you like art. We should go to the gallery in the city centre. Do you have time this weekend?'

If he is busy at work he might not arrange something till tonight / the weekend when he has more time to think.

If he is a chancer or just not interested enough the OP will now get the slow fade. Some chat but no third date request - and she would never suggest it - and then the messages become more sporadic till they stop.

Time will tell.

Livelifelaughter · 04/08/2023 11:04

Tootsmarbles · 03/08/2023 23:41

this thread may be my final straw 😂😭 all the pick me women leaping to this mediocre man’s defence, or I think there may be quite a few men on here 👀 “this is what equality looks like” “what happened to strong independent women” goady type bullshit is unbelievable.

this man has let OP research, plan, book the only two dates they’ve been on. She “chose an expensive place” ffs he’s an adult he could’ve looked up the prices online when she told him the place and if it was too expensive, could’ve suggested elsewhere. But no, he left the mental load to the woman which is the first red flag. It had to be near his work, near his station, nothing of inconvenience to him. 2nd red flag. And if he was thinking she’s a gold digger or chose an expensive place and he was worried about footing the bill then HE shouldn’t have ordered a cocktail, 2 LARGE wines, a steak and a dessert. When she “offered” to pay (which she actually DIDN’T) this man thought he’d won a watch and didn’t even offer to split, knowing full well he’d paid a measly £16 for a sandwich the previous date. Men ARE NOT STUPID they know exactly what they’re doing, I’d bet money that he’s not that interested or doesn’t feel it’s worth it to pay a lot if he doesn’t see himself getting a return (sex) anytime soon.

this third date may happen but OP will be expected to organise it, choose the venue, etc (he’ll act casual, “I’m not fussed, you choose” cos they’re lazy like that and not actually that interested) and he’ll maybe pay at best or will go halves “to be equal” 🙄 OP will be kicking herself weeks, months, years down the line cursing the MN pick mes for this terrible advice 😂

and I’ve not even started on the fact that men and women when dating are NOT playing on an even field. Women are a far more valuable resource to men, than men are to women. And that is a fact, not open for debate. Men tell us that themselves. Only fans, escorts, “mail order” brides, passport bros, SWS, strip clubs, trafficking of girls and women. Men plough huge amounts of money, time and energy pursuing women, for good reason; it’s to their benefit.

Here here. I can't believe the number of people who have called OP a gold digger, if she was she would have set the bar very low if all she was after was a bloke who could pay £110 or whatever....

coodawoodashooda · 04/08/2023 11:54

Livelifelaughter · 04/08/2023 11:04

Here here. I can't believe the number of people who have called OP a gold digger, if she was she would have set the bar very low if all she was after was a bloke who could pay £110 or whatever....

Show quote history

That's a brilliant post. Especially pointing out the, 'I'm not fussed', mental load distribution.

Mamabear487 · 04/08/2023 13:45

FloydPepper · 03/08/2023 14:02

And you’re proud of that?

Show quote history

@FloydPepper yes absolutely why wouldn’t I be he’s always looked after me and his kids. People like you are just miserable no ones doing it for you

FloydPepper · 04/08/2023 14:01

Mamabear487 · 04/08/2023 13:45

@FloydPepper yes absolutely why wouldn’t I be he’s always looked after me and his kids. People like you are just miserable no ones doing it for you

Show quote history

😂

blueshoes · 04/08/2023 14:03

Janieforever · 04/08/2023 07:22

God if a man said that about a woman there would be an outcry. Reducing a humans value to their genitalia.

Show quote history

I think you might be reading things too literally.

AncientBallerina · 04/08/2023 17:52

Wow this thread has touched a few nerves! We’re never going to find out whether there was a third date or not are we?! OP probably can’t believe the floodgates she has opened.
To all the etiquette heads please don’t use the phrase ‘beyond the pale’ - it’s not a very pleasant thing to say especially around Irish people. You won’t find that in your etiquette manuals though.

NewName122 · 04/08/2023 18:37

If what you said here is true you actually offered to get the bill. So yabu.

Siouxiesiouxiesioux · 04/08/2023 19:45

Tootsmarbles · 03/08/2023 23:41

this thread may be my final straw 😂😭 all the pick me women leaping to this mediocre man’s defence, or I think there may be quite a few men on here 👀 “this is what equality looks like” “what happened to strong independent women” goady type bullshit is unbelievable.

this man has let OP research, plan, book the only two dates they’ve been on. She “chose an expensive place” ffs he’s an adult he could’ve looked up the prices online when she told him the place and if it was too expensive, could’ve suggested elsewhere. But no, he left the mental load to the woman which is the first red flag. It had to be near his work, near his station, nothing of inconvenience to him. 2nd red flag. And if he was thinking she’s a gold digger or chose an expensive place and he was worried about footing the bill then HE shouldn’t have ordered a cocktail, 2 LARGE wines, a steak and a dessert. When she “offered” to pay (which she actually DIDN’T) this man thought he’d won a watch and didn’t even offer to split, knowing full well he’d paid a measly £16 for a sandwich the previous date. Men ARE NOT STUPID they know exactly what they’re doing, I’d bet money that he’s not that interested or doesn’t feel it’s worth it to pay a lot if he doesn’t see himself getting a return (sex) anytime soon.

this third date may happen but OP will be expected to organise it, choose the venue, etc (he’ll act casual, “I’m not fussed, you choose” cos they’re lazy like that and not actually that interested) and he’ll maybe pay at best or will go halves “to be equal” 🙄 OP will be kicking herself weeks, months, years down the line cursing the MN pick mes for this terrible advice 😂

and I’ve not even started on the fact that men and women when dating are NOT playing on an even field. Women are a far more valuable resource to men, than men are to women. And that is a fact, not open for debate. Men tell us that themselves. Only fans, escorts, “mail order” brides, passport bros, SWS, strip clubs, trafficking of girls and women. Men plough huge amounts of money, time and energy pursuing women, for good reason; it’s to their benefit.

With due respect she didn’t
organise both dates. The first was a walk
mear his home and at the end of the walk she looked up a pub on her phone (I assume) that was close to where they had walked to. She might have got her phone out to do this before he did. If he had insisted on finding somewhere he would have been labelled someone who was trying to be in control. I don’t think it’s being a pickme girl for trying to be fair.

For the record I am an older woman who - thank God - doesn’t date so I have no idea about the contemporary rules of dating.

Hufflepods · 04/08/2023 19:49

Mamabear487 · 04/08/2023 13:45

@FloydPepper yes absolutely why wouldn’t I be he’s always looked after me and his kids. People like you are just miserable no ones doing it for you

Show quote history

The man who has multiple kids with you but doesn’t marry you isn’t ‘looking after you’.

Let me guess he looks after you by being a big man and paying the bills … of the home
he owns and which you have no financial stake in. Lovely.

Siouxiesiouxiesioux · 04/08/2023 19:57

Summertiempo · 03/08/2023 12:35

You have been talking on this thread about you a lot -
What you would do
How your parents raised you
In your culture.

It is a bit too much hearing about you the perfect being, with perfect upbringing and culture. Let others also offer their perspectives and most importantly OP's, who you called manipulative, when she already accepted that her communication is poor and apologised for wrongly worded title.

Show quote history

Isn’t it the point that we all talk about our own experience? What else do we bring to this site but ourselves?