How to politely ask FIL to NOT touch me

[Bluesky5512]

I’ve known FIL for the last 15ish years. He is 75. He has been a thorough gentleman all through. Inlaws live in the US, we visit them every year. MIL passed away a couple of years ago in a sudden accident. Ever since FIL has been visiting us more often and at times staying for 2-3 months at a time. We stuck a friendship during his recent visits. We talk about politics, astronomy (is was a professor) and yoga (my passion). I see him as a father figure and a friend. DH works in a hospital and I work from home. I take FIL out and about with me - grocery, school runs etc

He has been acting weird lately. Pinching my cheeks, Putting his hands on my shoulder, and yesterday on my waist. WTF !! I was totally taken back and he doesn’t seem to realise. He was never a “creep” IYKWIM. But this touchy behaviour is making me very uncomfortable. I don’t know how to tell him to stop without ruining our friendship.

Problem is this man is not a U.K. resident with a go here and his next of kin, op's Dh, is not in on the picture.

If this is a health issue the first sensible step is to talk to dh and see what he will do to support his dad to get help. If he won't accept the behaviour as real then op has to just lay down her boundaries either directly to fil if it works and to dh if it does not.

If op fears dh won't support her in this then what else would he ever support her on? He doesn't sound worth being married to if she's right.

If the man has dementia then it is not treatable and will get worse. Dh may decide he has to be cared for at home in the family. Op might need to think about who is going to be doing the caring. Presumably with the sexist history of the family, expectations may fall on her...

GP sorry

Dementia is not currently curable but there are drugs that could slow its progression.

I'm not sure why people think he's more likely to have started to be a creep for other reasons. Dementia is a common disease and often starts like this. I can't see the harm in getting it checked out personally, while at the same time communicating your boundaries and keeping more of a distance.

He’s showing some documented signs of the onset, as anyone who has cared for someone with dementia will tell you, and from the OPs own mouth this is new behaviour, which is a red flag. And my point is that if this is dementia, firming up boundaries and ‘requiring’ him to stop, will have no effect. All it will do is progressively destroy any relationship she has with FIL as the symptoms worsen and he possibly becomes aggressive. I have no comprehension as to why anyone would jump to dirty old man if there was even the slightest suggestion that something may be amiss health wise, which there clearly is here.

OP there is another thread on which an experienced dementia nurse has offered advice. The link is here.https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/dementia/4793194-former-dementia-specialist-nurse-ask-me-anything?latest=1

Maybe have a look at it and post the info you’ve given here. Ask how likely it is that the signs you’ve noticed point to dementia, and if so, what the next steps are to get an assessment.

Dementia can cause some disinhibition in the early days, but it could just be he is a naturally huggy person, and your growing friendship with him has made him think your now in the sphere of people he can hug. Losing a spouse who you hugged frequented, can leave you desperate for physical comfort. My uncle was recently bereaved and says all he wants to do is cuddle someone as that is what he misses the most.

However you need to set your boundaries and either speak t9 him, or withdraw enough so that he gets the message.

Dementia is not curable but you are not correct in saying it’s not treatable. There are drugs that can slow progression and others that can address troublesome behaviours. There are different forms of dementia, and vascular dementia comes with an increased risk of heart attack and stroke, as well as seizures, so FIL may be facing a few issues in the event this turns out to be vascular.

And my point is that if this isdementia, firming up boundaries and ‘requiring’ him to stop, will have no effect. at which point OP might consider what is driving the behaviour but the first action would be to ask him to stop. I understand you feel your experience of dementia gives you insight into this man’s behaviour but I don’t think you are thinking clearly or being logical and WHATEVER the cause the OP needs to be supported in defending her right to say “no” and modelling that behaviour to her child.

I’m thinking just fine thanks, and basing everything I’ve said on hands on experience. I am not, in any way, suggesting that the OP shouldn’t be supported, or shouldn’t protect herself and her child, and yes, the first step is to ask him to stop. But if he doesn’t, and the behaviour continues, the danger is that he will then be labelled as a dirty old man instead of getting help he may need. I’m merely pointing out, as many others have done, that the signs of early onset seem to fit what’s happening and shouldn’t be ignored. And if it turns out to be health related, it will be easier for the OP when that’s recognised and treated. Why is that illogical ?

Personally I have no problem telling someone not to do something no matter if it's a relative or a friend or a random person. I still don't understand why you wouldn't just say something in that situation. You are enabling his behaviour and that is not ok. Regarding your husband I would have a convo with him about not protecting you but instead blaming you. This has been going on for too long now. When do you make a stop to it?

I think lots of us are arguing over hypotheticals and not what op is saying/doing. Some pp are saying she'd be wrong to confront fil angrily if it's a medical issue.

But she's not having a word with fil (at least as yet).

She has told her dh.

It's really down to dh, not op, to encourage fil to get assessed for dementia (or whatever the first medical step is). The ball is in dh's court.

Op only told dh yesterday (I think, lost track a bit of the days) and so far he hasn't responded constructively but tbf he hasn't had long to process the info.

In the meantime, op is keeping herself at arms' length (literally) from fil to keep herself safe from his touching. (Although as she's already found, this doesn't always work as he touched her near the computer yesterday.)

This is now a sensible watch and wait phase imo.

@Rosscameasdoody because your stance was to consider it might be dementia BEFORE considering it might be bad behaviour.

Which, with an elderly person exhibiting a change of behaviour like this, is the logical and correct thing to do.

I am surprised at the number of people who, faced with an elderly family member exhibiting a change of behaviour like this, will not do the obvious, caring thing of checking if this is an early sign of dementia, instead jumping to the conclusion that they have started behaving badly for no apparent reason. If it is dementia, the sooner it is diagnosed and treatment starts, the better for everyone.

@prh47bridge before you even said can you stop doing that? How odd

I think you need to do both. OP needs to kindly, repeatedly if necessary, ask him not to do certain things when he does them. And they need to consider getting him referred for dementia assessment.

Be aware GP basic testing for cognitive decline sets the bar very low. It’s better to ask for a referral to a geriatrician/neurologist.

You can’t ask for a referral on someone else’s behalf nor will a GP discuss a patient with a third party, particularly one who isn’t even a relative.

The guy is not entitled to health treatment in the U.K. he is going to have to go down the us route if at all. This would be a massive headache for the husband managing the situation internationally, and so one can see he would prefer not to start addressing it. My concern is the op, who has always been treated badly by this fil (read her posts on his lifelong sexist treatment of her) and, indirectly, by his son her dh who could not stand up to him in the past or present. End of life conditions are hard for the next generation to manage at the best of times but with all these extra complications op needs to avoid the trap of being treated as the main carer of the extended family. She has to both rebuff the unattractive fil AND get the dh to step up on health issues at the same time, as has been posted. Fil is not a nice person who has changed character. He has merely lost inhibitions for whatever reason. Op is clear he has an always had an offputting sexism to him.

fair enough. He is not on any medication. Even if he is, it’s DH and his sister’s job to sort it out. My compassion ends with company, inclusion (in our family) and friendship. A woman’s friendship doesn’t mean she’ll be ok with touching. At least, I’m not.
I’ve jumped back or moved away every time he touched. That should be enough to show I don’t like it. He kept on doing it. I’ve massively pulled back now. Only talking from a distance.

He goes back on 12th sept. He usually comes back every year. I’ll reassess that depending on how the “distancing” works out in the next few weeks.

Whether I verbally tell him to stop or not, I won’t put up with this.

With dementia possibility, I told DH about what I observed. He brushed it aside. Not my problem anymore. The family operates with a sense of superiority and denial. And no one challenges that. Things like dementia, blood pressure, diabetes etc happen to lesser mortals, not them. They refuse medication and bury their head in sand and “act” healthy.

Loss of inhibition due to dementia wouldn't result in FIL only touching OP I don't think.

I'm not so sure
loss of inhibitions mean that he is unable to contain his urges, as a heterosexual male he is unlikely to have urges to touch up other men, he likely feels sexually attracted to his daughter-in-law and has strong urges to grope her. The urge is inhibited by the presence of his son but when his son is not there he can't contain it.

This gives you a detailed preview of what is in store for you as your husband ages

So it could be

a) onset of dementia
b) in his right mind and prepared to breach OP's boundaries

PP suggesting seeking confirmation of dementia symptoms by observation have got it wrong. Have you heard of confirmation bias?

As someone upthread said, you can test theory (b) by challenging the behaviour clearly, and seeing whether he is embarrassed, defensive, or stops. If so, this supports theory (b).

If not, then this suggests theory (a) is worth exploring further.

Agree with @SequentialAnalyst ( perfect name!) . Especially as suggesting ill health seems to be an insult to this family.

That's not a realistic way to rule out dementia. They are still people, with dementia. It can cause loss of inhibitions and impulsive behaviour. They may feel ashamed when challenged, or get defensive or angry the same as anyone else.

I'd suggest you read up on the other symptoms of dementia (and Parkinson's) and look out for them. Its all academic anyway, if he won't seek medical help, and if you DH isn't on board with keeping his wife or daughter safe.

Gosh I feel for you op. But at least he is going back in a month. Hopefully you can make it such a cold atmosphere that he does not want to come for such a long period next time or perhaps he will deteriorate over 23-4 enough for a further trip not to be viable. If he has not laid off and next year brings another visit, you can have plenty of time to rearrange how the household works with lots of trips out or away for you and your daughter next year. And dh to take more time off work to be with and look after his dad.

Very glad you've reached a plan. In laws can be such a minefield.