To not understand what she’s spending it on

[Idlovetoknow]

It’s my mother. She’s a pensioner and a widow, but she working. She cannot deal with her finances. She’s been on the phone tonight weeping over how much of a dire situation she’s in financially, but I don’t see how.

income from work: £1100 (after tax)
state pension: £800
widows pension: £1600 (think this is after tax too)
private pension: £200/300 (she was wooly on this)
so total income around £3600 a month

No mortgage, no rent, no grounds costs.
council tax £200 a month. Power £150 (let’s say 200 to round up) food and pet food £400, car £450 petrol £100, health insurance £200, phone £50, sky £50, pet insurance £80- that’s £1300 at an absolute max

i don’t understand. She’s not being frauded or taken advantage of, but i don’t understand. I try to talk to her for instance tonight when she rang frantic over money but she gets into such a tizz she can’t tell you anything. I’ve asked for months for all bills and bank statements to go over expenses but she can’t produce them

Anyone any ideas?

you know that no one can do that right? You can’t just phone up a bank and asked them to send someone’s statements to you?

There’s no reasoning with them either is there. My FIL got talked into a huge iPad in JL, to be used instead of a phone so he has to carry a satchel with him everywhere and uses the iPad to make calls. It’s ridiculous, he isn’t blind, he just needed a simple to use phone 🤦🏻‍♀️

My MIL sadly passed away in 2018. She had various forms of income and took holidays regularly. She had retired around 3 years earlier with substantial pension lump sum plus downsized her property releasing further funds. It wasn't until she passed that we found out the extent of the debt she was in due to compulsive spending, premium face treatments etc and a bad QVC habit. Neighbours told us 3 parcels a week were arriving. She had a huge chest full of it, wardrobe full of new clothes for the upcoming holidays. Extent of the debts were £20,000 from credit cards, overdrawn accounts borrowing from one to pay another. Could be a similar situation to this. Shopping channels are like kryptonite for some people. Perhaps more direct questions are needed. Do not assist financially until you have answers. PS MILs paperwork including all banking letters were shredded. Good luck.

Dear Idlovetoknow,
I read your replies as far as I could (I'm short of time - sorry).
I'm a widow, pensioner on a much lower... err.. that's MUCH lower income than your mother. I mean the sort that makes me choose between food and heat sometimes and not having central heating. I am disabled and had to stop working through disability. I have trouble with the daily expenses. But I usually just about scrape by. I am very well educated and held a good position in a job requiring high qualifications but the car accident obliterated my career. I never go out except for medical appointments. No car, no holidays. Your mother might do well to think of people like me, and there are many worse off than I.

I think money is as much an attitude as a reality. Some people my age are simply frightened, I often am, by the cost of living these days. They may be unrealistic about what they can afford. The price of heating has terrified many of us.

I think your mother is emotionally blackmailing you. I'll be blunt - sorry - she sounds very spoilt, with her many first class holidays: It must upset you but I saw this in a different light when you said;
"She broke down sobbing in a car dealership because she couldn’t have both a £600 a month car and 5 holidays a year (btw these holidays are 2 weeks at a time and she’d never lower herself to stay in anything less than 5 stars… maybe a 4+ boutique hotel maybe, she’d treat herself to 1st class here and there too)" and two houses and, sorry, 5 bedrooms is a big house, and a new car every 3 years, sobbing in the show-room because she wants the top model - that alone speaks of a very manipulative person to me. As for her grudge that she 'only' gets half of her late husband's pension, well, when he was alive, did he not need some of it, and does she not have earning capacity of her own? She sounds terribly selfish and terribly 'entitled'.

I'm so sorry, Idlovetoknow, I think your mother's 'money problems' do not exist at all but that she has a personality problem and is burdening you with her monetary worries because she can get your attention and because she actually believes she is entitled to a life of luxury with a high income. I feel extremely sorry for you to have to go through her kind of phone calls and her unreasonable complaints about her finances and what she wants. You have your own children and she should be supporting you - not financially although she could if she tried, but emotionally. But she is someone who only thinks of herself. Her world revolves around herself and she thinks she somehow has the right to have everything she wants; she believe she needs only the most luxurious life with the most expensive lifestyle money can buy. I expect your father found this very hard. Now he has passed, she is using you as her emotional battering ram.

Try and keep a distance between her whining about money and your feelings. It is a manipulative, selfish, attention-seeking device. Just stay neutral. Say obvious things like, 'Well you are not starving, you are managing well. If necessary you could cut back on some spending. Maybe get a cheaper car." Remain cool and calm. Just sound neutral and friendly but unemotional. It's not your problem and do not expect her to change. I'm afraid she is too old for this.

Above all, take care of yourself, your own family and enjoy your life with them. Lots of love, Elle. 💐

Ooh ooh ooh!!! Is that an AI generated reply in the wild @Ellyess?

Dear CatMum000 ·
What a nightmare! I just hope there were no debts left once the assets were sold.
I had to have an inward laugh though, as, being practically housebound, I have to have everything delivered. The dog's food and pee-pads are the biggest parcels. Pee-pads as I can't get to open the back door quickly enough for them to go out in the morning. I get all my food delivered and some things to keep my computer going. Also some second-hand books. And milk with a few supplies the Modern Milkman delivers.
I know I have a neighbour opposite whose chief hobby is keeping an eye on the her neighbours. No doubt she has me marked off as being like your M-in-law. Heaven forbid!
FlipFlop1987
I suppose I should be sticking up for them as I'm nearer that generation. But I simply get exasperated. My iPad was 12 years old and my laptop nearly as old. Neither can be updated any more. I looked and looked until I found an ex-demo iPad which is a recent one and which I could afford at a little over 50% of the retail price. It should see me out. The laptop will be replaced with a refurbished one. As I said, I need to do my shopping online as I cannot get out, so the laptop is necessary. Also, because I am house-bound, it is my link with the outside world.

She's lying

BarbaraofSeville ·
I'm sure it's really witty! But I didn't really get it. Sorry. Maybe you will explain.

Maybe suggest you both go to her Bank. They can see where the money is going. She might be more calm in front of someone from the bank.
Is she likely to fall for mail fraud? My mil hasn't but I am surprised, as when we moved from living with them, she would send us our post, even the stuff that was clearly junk mail, simply because it said private. But clearly junk.

Yesssss!

@Ellyess nice reply

Nohelpfromme
I'm really sorry to hear of what you go through.
Mine too, made heavy demands. It was too much when she kept lying.
Solidarity and sympathy means everything even if you can't suggest what to do. Knowing people understand because they are going through it too, and that they bother to send their love and understanding really helped me. I sincerely hope it helps our OP.
I do hope our OP can step back a bit and enjoy her own family. My experience was that the more I did the more the demands grew. I had to become very detached and useless in regard to the demands put on me. On the phone I'd change the subject.

People who cannot. write in with supportive help or sympathetic understanding should keep away. I think it shows just how small-minded and mean a few people are when they write nasty remarks, especially to an OP who has written in for help with something that is distressing her.

check out narcissistic personality disorder. maybe that rings true to your childhood etc. they like to overspend and cant control money, thinking 5* hotels is what they deserve etc even if they cant afford it. also being cagey about their finances and seeking attention. i wdnt take any notice if this is the case even tho it is yr mother.

Ah OP I get you. I'm the scapegoat child as well. And a DM that should have lived easily on what Dad left her but is now broke and needs to sell up.
In her case, she's likely pissed it away playing Lady Bountiful with her extended family.
I'm the one who has to arrange everything for her, or help her buy what she needs but it's only so she can absolve herself and blame me when her impulsive purchases turn out to be wrong.
Luckily I have siblings who see the dysfunctional dynamic and even the favourite is still burdened with their own set of issues and challenges when it comes to DM, so we've got each other's backs.
I stay well out of any decision and purchase now as much as I'm able to but still...

This

I'm confused as to why OP is getting such a hard time. Her and her husband work 2 jobs, have 2 young children and don't live that near her mother. Whereas her mother is literally living the life of Riley. Whilst throwing lot of histrionics which feel very much like "my diamond shoes are too tight".

I sympathise massively. I'm spread thinly myself and have a histrionic mother. I feel like boundaries and grey rock are needed. Plus some stock phrases to be copy and pasted into conversations "why don't you see a financial advisor / accountant", "lm a project manager, lm not qualified in..". "What has Walter (or whatever your brother name is) suggested...".

Whatever you do won't be enough and further on down the line will be "wrong" (in her opinion rather than actually obviously). This is the joy of being the scapegoat

OP, upthread I mentioned that there was a money coaching service being talked about on here a few months back, that your DM would probably be an ideal candidate for, if she'd engage with them, but I couldn't remember the name.

By coincidence, this thread about it just popped up again on my TIO.

Honestly I’m sick of this - all the time, if a person over 60 (or sometimes a parent of unspecified age who could easily be as young as 50) behaves badly or weirdly, loads of people on here immediately suggest dementia. I find it bloody depressing. I’m in my 60s, work full time in a demanding job, and it’s horrible to think that if I make a mistake or forget something, people will be thinking it’s dementia. I rarely make mistakes at work, certainly no more than a young person and I work just as hard. State pension age is 66. There are millions of people working very effectively and running their homes and lives perfectly normally in their 60s and 70s.

The incidence of dementia between age 60 and 65 for women is less than 0.5%, and between 65 and 70 it’s only 2%.

OP’s mum holds down a responsible job and manages to book herself on 6 lavish holidays a year. She’s not a poor old confused thing in any way at all.

Does your mother often text you saying she hasn't heard from you and wonders if you are OK (even though you called her last time a few days ago and she has a phone) ?

You said she burst into tears at a car sales place? Mine is prone to sobbing too for no good reason apart from guilt trips or feeling sorry sonething hasn't hone her way.

When you are ill, does she tell all her friends and family how hard it is (for her) and how awful it's making her feel for attention to be on her?

Gets very defensive if you suggest anything she doesn't like and makes out she's a victim?

Likes to be in the limelight all the time and gets jealous and puts others down when she isn't? Likes to be in charge and praised for anything she does?

Constantly remind you how good she's been to you even though she was an enabler /onlooker to abuse during your childhood (it wasn't her fault though!).

Likes people to think she's well to do but complains she has no money to you all the time (you know she's really not in any way struggling in reality).

She's just like mine or at least very spoilt. Be careful!

I think you have been given a hard time here. To a certain extent I understand as my mum is financially very well off due to my dads pension and moans about the cost of everything and was constantly asking me for financial advice and to do her tax return even though I live more than 200 miles away, have a fraction of the pension she has and fuel is expensive to get there and although early retired my husband has a heart condition and we help out with childcare for grandchildren. The difference is that she is not a narcissist and I do love her and she is very generous with us with monetary gifts for birthdays, christmas etc. She also doesn't say she is poor but she does moan about tax and how much things cost. I just laugh that off to say we don't like it either and our pensions are a fraction of hers. However she can easily afford to pay for professional advice so this is what I have said to her.

I told her clearly that I can help her but not on the phone or via email from a distance as she does not always have the right information to hand and it is difficult to figure out what she is moaning about. This sounds like your DM. We did a power of attorney and I have activated it so I can go online to her accounts and see for myself if there is a bond needing reinvesting or whatever. I have told her she needs proper financial advice and went to an IFA with her. I also set up an accountant to do her tax return as I am not a tax advisor and don't want the responsibility of advising wrongly or filling out the return inaccurately as I would never hear the end of it as she hits the roof if she things she has been charged too much tax. Now she moans about the accountant instead and the cost of it.

I would tell your DM that if she wants you to help sort out her finances then you need POA. She does not need to lack mental capacity for it to be activated and she can still access her accounts as before so does not need to hand over total control. As for the probate on her grandparents estate surely that is in your interests as well as hers to assist her or get a solicitor to sort it out and they can take the fee out of the estate.

Personally I would not do a 4 hour round trip with a young baby to sort out the finances of someone who is so much wealthier than me and is difficult and unrealistic about money rather than poor. I cannot afford a convertible or 6 holidays a year and obviously you cannot either. Why doesn't she ask her son if he is the golden child?

She may be embarrassed that she has signed up for things and doesn’t know how to stop them — like insurance policies, charity standing order perhaps. Remember how they used to harangue you in the street ? If she’s not producing bank statements she could just feel that she’s out of control and doesn’t want to admit it. I’d advise saying no matter what’s going on, you won’t judge, just help …

OP, when you say widow’s pension what do you mean ? Widow’s allowance is a benefit in the UK and is nowhere near £1600 a month. It also stops after a certain time period.

Don’t be daft. To get access to her mum’s bank account the OP would have to have her lasting power of attorney for financial matters, and prove to the bank that her mum doesn’t have capacity. Even then she wouldn’t be given free access - she would have to have a reason to access it and keep detailed records of any transactions made.

I don't think the OP is coming back, but in any case this point was raised days ago.
She means the pension her mum gets from her late father's company pension (roughly 50%.)

It's an occupational pension, I imagine. I get 50% of my late DH's firms pension, which they call a Widows Pension.

OP - not sure how long ago your Dad died, but this could be a symptom of grief.

DH died recently, and, although my brain knows that I'm comfortably off, a good monthly income with 4 pensions, with plenty of savings behind me, I still get crazy panic attacks that I won't be able to manage.

I do have to pay SH rent, but I don't drive or have extravagant holidays, i have worked out that I'm fine, but I do sometimes wake up panicking.

I don't tell the family, because I assume that it's grief, and fear of having to cope alone.

Your Mum might be in the same position.💐