To not understand what she’s spending it on

[Idlovetoknow]

It’s my mother. She’s a pensioner and a widow, but she working. She cannot deal with her finances. She’s been on the phone tonight weeping over how much of a dire situation she’s in financially, but I don’t see how.

income from work: £1100 (after tax)
state pension: £800
widows pension: £1600 (think this is after tax too)
private pension: £200/300 (she was wooly on this)
so total income around £3600 a month

No mortgage, no rent, no grounds costs.
council tax £200 a month. Power £150 (let’s say 200 to round up) food and pet food £400, car £450 petrol £100, health insurance £200, phone £50, sky £50, pet insurance £80- that’s £1300 at an absolute max

i don’t understand. She’s not being frauded or taken advantage of, but i don’t understand. I try to talk to her for instance tonight when she rang frantic over money but she gets into such a tizz she can’t tell you anything. I’ve asked for months for all bills and bank statements to go over expenses but she can’t produce them

Anyone any ideas?

The last four posts are spot on. She clearly has a very decent income, doesn’t want to sort out her money problems (even if those problems are just not understanding any of it), and won’t accept practical help. She isn’t going to run out of money and is working and driving a nice car.

You on the other hand OP sounds very busy, and stressed, and need to prioritise yourself in this situation. I like the advice above to nod, and be sympathetic, and then don’t get involved. There’s nothing you can do that you haven’t tried already.

Can you ask her to take a photo of her next statement and send it to you?

May I recommend you have a look at the following active thread, where you will find people who understand the toxic family dynamic from which you seem to be suffering:
April 2023 -"Well we took you to Stately Homes" | Mumsnet

I get it about the driving, sorry you've had such a hard time over this.

There is no lump sum for women aged 68 who take their pension later than when they are eligible. I know. I am one of those women (close to your mum's age.)

Southernlassies, just want to check as I got it wrong earlier, but can a woman born after 5 March 1953, who delays claiming still backdate her claim for a year? That would give her £9600 paid at once which, given her other income might push her into higher rate tax.

I don't know if it's been mentioned already, but could the recent inflationary rises on the cost of everything be fuelling her panic?

The quote I included was from an online site on pensions. It's pretty clear. No lump sum is available for women taking a state pension after 2016.

I don't know why the OP is getting bogged down in the detail of this small taxation / pension issue.

It's clear her mum has issues that are not about the money itself, but about seeking attention and abusing her as she did her late husband.

Read some of the insightful posts on this and the family back-story.

Not really. It'd only be 40% higher rate tax on the income over £50k, ie on £2k, not on the full £52k.

TBH all this delving into her possible tax affairs is ridiculous.

It's not the point.

IF- and it's a big 'if' - her mum feels she is being taxed incorrectly, she needs to talk to HMRC.
End of.

It's just stupid any of us here wondering what's going on.

The OP's Mum is clearly manipulative, doesn't appear to know what's going on with her money- or at least pretending she doesn't.

OP has had bucket loads of sensible advice, which in a nutshell is Step back, don't engage, this is all about control/abuse' and refuse to discuss it

@CecilyP

Thats about the long and short of it. Even the most expert financial adviser won’t be able to advise without seeing the finances they are advising on!

Fully agree. I'm an accountant and sometimes get people in very similar situations with multiple income sources, lots of money sloshing around, but wanting help with tax etc. Trouble is that like the OP's mother, they come in with half baked stories and very little documentary evidence as to what's actually happening, so it's impossible to help them. Half the meeting is usually "woe is me" about how they've paid tax all their lives and how unfair it is that they have to pay tax on pensions, la-la-la. I just want to drill down to the detail but they seem to think I can solve their problems with just generic whingeing about how hard done by they are (despite usually having incomes more than an average worker with much lower outgoings and of course no NIC to pay!).

Sometimes they come in with, say, a PAYE coding notice, but it's meaningless without knowing their income levels from each source, which they're usually very vague about. It's often like pulling teeth, you think you're getting somewhere and then suddenly they say "Oh, I also get £1k a month from my teacher's pension" and you're back to square one again because they "can't find" any payslips or PAYE codes for that, so I don't know if it's £1k gross or net etc. Or they say "Oh, and there's the carer's allowance". Sometimes I just want to bang my head against the desk as they're painful to deal with.

Then, of course, you know they're going to moan about the bill as we've had to spend a lot more time than necessary just constantly asking them for the documents we asked for from the outset and then finally having to delve through a small mountain of paperwork, often going back decades, because they couldn't be arsed to sort it out themselves and just dumped a box full on my desk (after about the 20th time I asked for a handful of recent documents, such as last month's bank statement, payslip, and latest PAYE coding notices!)

Spot on. This is a selfish, manipulative, financially very comfortable woman who has already seen a professional financial advisor and decided to do the opposite of what they advised. Now she's blaming her daughter for her imagined financial difficulties. But she is absolutely not short of money. She has a good income, chooses to be extravagant and has substantial savings and investments - she isn't running out of money.

All the people here talking about incorrect tax, scams, dementia or that she's grieving or lonely are barking up the wrong tree.

OP you have already spent too much time and emotional energy on her, when you have your own life and family that should be your priority. The only sensible thing to do is disengage and ignore the moaning, but you won't do that. So you've set yourself an impossible task. Your mother demands that you help her but won't let you. If you don't stop letting her play you, you'll have all this anxiety permanently.

I've only got to page 2 of 3 of your own posts and one thing is very clear.

She is consistently phoning you crying and worrying about money. You have made suggestions to resolve this by asking for her bank statements and pension summaries etc. She is not doing anything to help herself and instead just continues to complain it's all impossible.

You are consistently posting moaning and being frustrated at the situation. We have made suggestions to resolve this by you going up there or asking for her details to set up online banking which you could check. You are not doing anything to actually resolve this and just continue to complain it's all impossible.

One of you has to actually DO something if you want this situation to change. You or her. But you need to DO something.

Who organised probate on your dads estate when he died? Would that have given a better view of what the overall financial situation was?

@Idlovetoknow You've previously been advised by @Hungrycaterpillarsmummy to ask for bank statements and for her to get internet, and if she refuses or is evasive to say "ok well since you won't use internet banking and won't show statements I can't help you. Do not talk to me about any money issue."

But you said that wasn't an answer for you. Why not? What's stopping you saying this to her?

I’ve not said that’s not the answer for me, itd the only logical answer, it’s what we’ve (dh and I) said before, I can try and help but only if I have the facts which is payslips, Bank statements, investments and financial advice reports because unless I have it it’s just guessing, that’s what causes her to go off into a spin and say I’m not helping. To which I’ve said I can’t if you won’t meet me half way, so we can’t more forward until you do. We had this conversation yesterday when she said she was worried the power would go out. She’s £600 in credit

my reason for the thread is she’s claiming she’s got such high outgoings and is being crippled (her words) with tax but I cannot understand why or even how it’s possible. whilst she used to go on lavish holidays, she’s ‘only’ been on 2 fairly average ones this year.

There was no probate, she was named on all the assets. There’s just some outstanding investment she won’t move to her name and cash In because it’s ‘too much, so she just collects the dividends each month.

she let her parents estate rot because she ‘can’t’ do it, the house is as they left it 10 years ago but now in dereliction, and is constantly getting letters from council and environmental health about it. She just destroys them. With 20/30k put into it (about half they had in the bank but again no probate or letter of authority as they died without a will, she’s squandered it) the house could sell for 150/170 easy. But she’d rather waste it than do something.

She sounds utterly impossible.

I am going to try to be polite to you OP.

You don't seem to be able to understand the point many posters have made.

Have you read the posts about how this is not about money but it's manipulation and abuse?

You appear from your update to be stuck in a mindset of thinking 'If only I could get my hands on those blasted bank statements etc, I could help and it would be sorted.'

It won't be.

Your mum doesn't want help. She is manipulating you. The being short of money is a lie and a fantasy. She's wanting attention.
You've already said she was abusive to your dad. Now it's your turn to suffer the histrionics, the moods, the drama.

Have you read the posts advising you to disengage with her?

A couple of posts back, someone asked what you were going to DO.

If you insist on trying to get your hands on the paperwork and help her, all you are doing is playing her game. It will never end.

Are you actually ever going to tell her you don't want to discuss money?

You’re right and it’s making me really tense for a few reasons; like some posters before my mum seems to think I can just drive down and sort it all for her, not actually caring that I work 6 days a week and dh 7, we’ve got a baby and a pre schooler. She could meet us half way but expects us to solve it all.
the fact that she’s clearly not struggling and if she was, the first thing any sensible person would do would be get rid of the sports car and get a more affordable one. It’s insensitive given that we’ve had to get second jobs due to increased costs and still wanting to save
then there’s the whole bang your head against a brick wall factor.

point is you’re right and it’s exhausting.

So what are you going to DO?

Stop complaining about it (you're starting to sound like her!) and actually change your behaviour.

I don't think you owe us an explanation...

I do think you may need therapy just to have someone who can help you set boundaries and have some kind of functional relationship with her. Of course it may be that when you're refusing to engage with this stuff she will refuse to let you have a relationship with her, but if you're happy with the boundaries you have set you may be ok with that.

I do know you sound browbeaten by this. Don't be browbeaten by this thread too x

Honestly your posts up until now have been super supportive and helpful, but now it’s taken a turn and my knee jerk reaction to reading this was F off I don’t owe you an explanation and that’s such an unkind thing to say

but I can’t DO anything, except, repeat unless you’re going to meet me half way, I can’t help you.

sad thing is it’s my inheritance likely getting pissed away, money my father made my mum promised she’d give and not piss away for the sake of writing an easy will. Money he worked with stage 4 cancer for - that is emotional for me and why I feel tied. He knew his lot but kept going when he should’ve relaxed and taken it easy but he kept going so we’d be comfortable. I’m

Thank you! I appreciate that. This thread has got exhausting and at times oddly confrontational

So she won’t let you see statements and bills. She won’t let you set up online accounts and won’t give you any proper information. So you can’t help her.

You need to tell her exactly that and stop trying to help until she gives you what you need. And don’t accept dribs and drabs. She either gives you everything you need and you can help or she doesn’t and you tell her there’s nothing you can do.

The fact my latest comment made you angry says a lot. It hit a nerve.

I mentioned therapy a while ago just like the poster recently. But you have never acknowledged that this issue with your mum is part of a wider problem.

You're using the thread to vent, which is fine. But if you are unable to change your own behaviour (which many, many posters have suggested) nothing will change.

If you feel frustrated and angry, maybe consider how your posts are frustrating for posters trying to help you.

You cannot force your mother to hand over the evidence you need.

She won't - because that will blow her cover.

There is no financial difficulty. There is chaos, certainly. There is head in the sand. But there is no evidence of her really wanting proper help.

If you are annoyed that me or other posters have become snarky with you, fair enough, tell us to fuck off.

But the reason we're snarky is because I guess we all hoped you might come back today and say

' Guess what folks, Ive thought about this overnight. I'm going to stand right back and tell her I am not going to engage with this behaviour any more. And what's more I'll tell her how it sickens me that she is using me like this, as well as not even offering to help us financially when we are struggling'.

Good luck with it all.

Does she think you have more money than her? Is she trying to suggest you give/lend her money because she is broke? Make sure she understands you are short of cash too and can only offer advice not financial help

Could you get power of attorney to organise her finances, it sounds like she is not competent to manage her own finances, but I imagine she would not consent.