To not want this child in my home?

[AlastorMoodysMadEye]

I feel like I should caveat this with me not actually holding this child responsible. She’s 4 so her behaviour isn’t necessarily something she can self regulate but it’s awful behaviour that her parents also seem to be unable/unwilling to address.

But I’ve had it. Every time she’s here things get broken - from cups to walls and furniture - because she repeatedly plays with or climbs on things she’s asked not to. You ask her not to eat anywhere but the table and she’ll grab her food and run off to the bathroom/bedroom/couch and smear whatever she has wherever she is. You ask her to leave things alone and she won’t until you wrestle them off her and then she will throw a massive tantrum, which can be ear-splitting and often involves her kicking out and more things being damaged or people being hurt.

Obviously the answer is don’t have her back until she behaves but if I set a rule like that it’ll cause the most almighty family row, with generations getting involved, and I’m not sure, knowing that it would be coming, whether I’m actually being unreasonable as how do we expect 4yo children to behave? And I’ll be told stuff is less important than faaaaaaamily.

So AIBU to actually put my home and belongings (and shins) ahead of family unity? Or do I have to suck it up and have my house trashed whenever she comes.

She must be starting school in September is that right? You say she's a bolter and it sounds like she is extremely impulsive - it wouldn't surprise me if at some point she's diagnosed with ASD or ADHD. To be a good parent of a child with ASD or ADHD though you really have to be a helicopter parent with eyes in the back of your head and it doesn't sound like her parents have the energy for it - which leaves you having to constantly watch her and be on high alert yourself.

How does DH feel about it? Would he support you if you decided you couldn't manage having her at your house any more? No one wants their house destroyed no matter the reason. Could you always meet at their house in future?

I don't disagree, I didn't make my point clearly before. What I think it unreasonable is banning a family member for what is a natural impulse to climb etc (just in the wrong setting). The parents should be more active, of course, but there are also ways of including children in family life without having to constantly micromanage them and worry about the furnishings. Sending them out in the garden, or setting aside a play space etc. What will be appropriate depends on how often they visit.

If they're in your home and staying overnight then I'm guessing the dn is struggling with the change and is maybe overexcited and stimulated and pushing boundaries as a result. She could also be nd and hasn't had diagnosis yet, girls tend to have more trouble getting a diagnosis.

I think it's your home so your rules apply. If my dn or dn were doing something I didn't want them doing in my house I'd say we eat our food at the table here, and remove the food and return it to the table. I'd be more direct with her parents and say, actually, I'm not comfortable with food through the house. They can't be mad at you having your own boundaries in your own home. What does dh say when she's acting this way, as his neice he should be more prepared to step up and challenge? Next time say the house isn't fit for guests but you can meet for a day out.

They'd be better off staying elsewhere if they live that far away and then you can meet them somewhere for a visit. Do you stay at theirs, ever and if so, how do they manage her behaviour at home?

I appreciate she may be but she’s a whirlwind from the moment she arrives so I’m not sure there’s time for her to be bored. I’m happy to provide a virtual babysitter but she creates chaos before I’ve had a chance to turn it on!

On her last visit she came in, headed straight for the piano and started bashing away on that. I asked -told- her to stop and she did. I then went into the kitchen to do tea for everyone. When I came out she wasn’t with DH and her parents so I went to look. I found her in my bed having pulled all of the clothes out of the bottom drawer of our dresser. Surely she’s not bored the moment she arrives?

Our eldest DD has got ADHD, and was very lively at that age so DH and I had a tag system so one of us was permanently watching what she was doing. There's no excuse for damaging or breaking belongings when you're in someone else's home. I would have been mortified if she'd been behaving in the way you've described OP.

The issue isn't the child, it's the parents watching or rather not watching her. There is no way I'd tolerate this lack of respect in my home, family or not.

When my daughter was 6 she had a best friend the same age with a 4 year old sister. The mum was a single mum, so of course the younger girl came too for play dates, and I enjoyed the company of the mum. The 4 year old was a total nightmare. I'd have to clear areas of anything I didn't want broken. I'd put up a stair gate, I had a lock installed on my downstairs office, solely to keep her out. My daughter was frightened of her as she once stabbed her in the arm with a fork at tea time (didn't break the skin, but it was done aggressively) The mum tried her best as did I but she was feral. The dad left them for another woman when my friend was pregnant with the 4 year old and has never shown interest in her, whereas he shows love to the 6 year old. This appeared to be the reason for the bad behaviour as we could think of nothing else. The older child was calm and sweet. The tantrums .... Jesus! She would scream and scream. She'd pick something up, look blankly at you and casually toss it somewhere. I felt sorry for the girl. The girls are all now in their early twenties and the little turned out to be perfectly fine, polite and academic. It was a phase, that's all. By the age of 7 she was a lot calmer.

Op , that's awful! Why do they let her get at your clothes? They seem to be in denial about her behaviour.

Some of the comments about the child on this thread are utterly appalling.

I had a child like this at age 4. My middle one, so fortunately, most family had seen how we'd raised number 1, and were raising number 3. I expect they'd have been incredibly judgemental if he'd been our only.

Instead everyone seemed to realise something was amiss and at age 5 he was diagnosed with severe hyperactive/impulsive ADHD. The best thing about severe presentations of ADHD is that treatment is effective and dramatic. (So we've finally caught up with the trail of destruction).

To be honest @AlastorMoodysMadEye in this situation the best thing a relative could have suggested to us would be getting together outside of people's houses. We did feel kind of forced to conform visiting others' homes even though it was difficult and stressful...a relatively safe outdoor venue/picnic would have been preferable.

And careful how you handle it. As a well treated nearly 9 year old, my son remembers the relatives who treated him poorly and made unpleasant comments when he couldn't stop himself. And as parents we never forget -some relationships have been damaged forever by attitudes and things that were said.

It’s more than a natural impulse to climb though. It’s an inability or unwillingness to follow any rules or requests or respect others possessions.

We’re actually pretty chilled with children though I’m aware I’m probably not coming across that way in this thread. I grew up in a house where you were shouted at for carelessness if you spilled or broke something by accident. This isn’t accidental damage, it’s playing with things she’s asked to leave alone, it’s refusal to follow basic rules like only eating at the table, it’s not being able to respect any boundaries.

Well her parents need to respect the fact that their daughter caused havoc in your house and she's not going to be allowed to do that anymore

Asking her parents to parent her might make some difference

I'd be surprised if it does

Since you said you're worried about her hurting herself as well as all the rest you could always use that bit and say you just don't want the responsibility if she gets injured, and if they come back with "Oooo no we wouldn't blame you!!" - which they probably will - follow up with the rest

Not sure why the rest of the family would raise Cain if you refuse them, but if they do suggest everyone could meet at theirs instead ...

Meet at a farm park with a nice cafe, a soft play with a nice cafe or a pub with a play area. There's lots of options for travelling a distance. Pick somewhere centrally if you all prefer.

People will have lots of good advice re behaviour but it seems like you’ve identified some things that could keep her busy and entertained.

Go onto Facebook marketplace and get cheap kids keyboard/toy piano and a selection of dressing up costumes to go in a box. When she arrives have them out ready. When she runs to the piano you can say, for example, “We can’t play with the big piano but here is your piano” or similar. Same with throwing clothes. That should soon give some insight into if it is purely an issue of behaviour or if boredom (especially after a long car ride) is also at play.

Great if you have the money spare !

I don't see how that proves she can't be bored. She remembers the piano is fun, so she heads for the piano. No one is paying her any attention so she takes herself off to go find something to do i.e. looking through your drawers. The adults should either be giving her attention or providing her with activities. Get her to come with you to carry the biscuits in to go with the tea (if that's the tea you meant). It's too much to expect a 4-year-old to sit quietly doing nothing while the adults chat.

Paying for a soft play or farm park would be cheaper than replacing many broken items like pianos.

If there's not money to spare then a park with a flask of tea would suffice.

What about locking internal doors to limit access?

OP mentioned upthread that the kid can climb the garden wall so I’d be concerned about her making a break for it - unless all the doors & windows are locked, which is just miserable when it’s good weather.

We have family members that parent like this. The DC are basically allowed to make their own rules and never told off or stopped from doing something. We used to just meet up for a couple of hours. If they’d come to our house I would have had to say something and we definitely would have fallen out as we parent very differently.

If family complain, say you are worried she may hurt herself as she climbs things she is told not to and breaks things. Find nice places to meet - a park with a playground, etc.

Four years olds can sometimes behave badly, but it would normally be one thing or a tantrum, then they are stopped. Or knocking a cup over, not running around wiping food on furniture.

I wouldn't allow this behaviour but as it is family I would try to meet this behaviour with curiosity rather than judgement. Have you talked to her parents separately about whether she is actually like this at home/elsewhere?

Some nasty comments calling her 'it' and 'feral'. This is a young child.

Is it heightened at your house? She sounds a bit out of control/over stimulated. Some kids get like this when with others/out of their usual environment. Does she have any neuro diverse traits? Or is it solely lack of parenting? Or both? 4 is on the older side for this type of behaviour in an NT child but certainly not unheard of, particularly if a one off.

I think I'd try to get her outside if you have a garden and stick to either no or neutral foods (rice cake can easily be hoovered), enforce your rules where possible, if she's out of control and no one responding, I'd say ah it seems like you need to take DN home, she's out of control. See you next time. Consider whether a next time could be somewhere more manageable for all.

And sorry, expecting others to have a yes space to manage your child's behaviour is going too far.

If this continues, try other venues or leave it for a while til she's a bit older. Children change a lot between 4 & 5- has she started school?

Her parents sound bloody useless - who ignores their 4 year old when visiting relatives? She needs her parents to actually do some parenting.

I have similar aged DC and neither they nor their friends would behave like that, including the ones who have struggles with good choices and their listening ears (!). It really is behaviour well outside the norm.

The parents should be doing more but probably could do with a fair bit of sympathy, they clearly have a lot on their plates.

How far are they travelling to see you - it may be she IS fed up and bored if shes been strapped into a car seat for hours and probably up to her eyeballs with screentime..

Engineer visits to start out outdoors where she can hurtle about for a bit... then to your home once thats done.

But really if the parents won't parent, I wouldn't have them visit, it is that simple. It seems they have no respect for your stuff, your property, your time... so why entertain them and host them at all.