To not want this child in my home?

[AlastorMoodysMadEye]

I feel like I should caveat this with me not actually holding this child responsible. She’s 4 so her behaviour isn’t necessarily something she can self regulate but it’s awful behaviour that her parents also seem to be unable/unwilling to address.

But I’ve had it. Every time she’s here things get broken - from cups to walls and furniture - because she repeatedly plays with or climbs on things she’s asked not to. You ask her not to eat anywhere but the table and she’ll grab her food and run off to the bathroom/bedroom/couch and smear whatever she has wherever she is. You ask her to leave things alone and she won’t until you wrestle them off her and then she will throw a massive tantrum, which can be ear-splitting and often involves her kicking out and more things being damaged or people being hurt.

Obviously the answer is don’t have her back until she behaves but if I set a rule like that it’ll cause the most almighty family row, with generations getting involved, and I’m not sure, knowing that it would be coming, whether I’m actually being unreasonable as how do we expect 4yo children to behave? And I’ll be told stuff is less important than faaaaaaamily.

So AIBU to actually put my home and belongings (and shins) ahead of family unity? Or do I have to suck it up and have my house trashed whenever she comes.

OP I feel your pain!!
One of my best friends has two boys 6 & 4 who are destructive and very badly behaved; the eldest may be autistic not yet diagnosed but the youngest just copies his behaviour plus steals things. She has no control over them and just cries at their behaviour.

I visit my friend and we go out when her ex has the boys so I avoid them but recently she's started asking if they can visit me. Basically I have no children myself.. my home is just not 'child friendly' and I have a very anxious indoor cat! My friend loves my cat and now thinks her boys should meet her which I am really concerned about.
The last time the eldest boy visited he was 3 and threw my cats toys at her then tried to destroy things I've collected.
My friend also wants me to go to the park with them but I'm worried they will chase the ducks there, they don't respect ducks as their unlovely dad shoots ducks for fun...
hmmm difficult!!

OP this 4 year old girls behaviour isn't normal at all, she may just be very badly brought up or she may have some underlying issues which need to be diagnosed by professionals.
Meanwhile make excuses not to have her in your house and if that means you have to distance yourself from family it's a shame but do what you have to do.

Or it may be that the child has parents who haven’t given her boundaries or sanctions.

I don't think it's judgemental to be annoyed at a child damaging expensive furniture like a piano.

Some parents have (shall we say) broader boundaries than others, but it is v.rude and disrespectful to allow your child free rein in someone else's house even if they are a relative.

Having SEN doesn't give a free pass to bad behaviour, you can't excuse the example OP has given of pouring juice on a piano as SEN. It is frankly disrespectful to all the parents of SEN/ND children out there.

Op, I know you know, but it isn't child problem it is a parent problem.

But if the little girl has SEN does that mean OP should let her house be destroyed?

It sounds to me as though she's found the perfect way to get attention. You mention that her father is on his phone a lot. Maybe if he got off his phone and played with her, she'd stop.

Oh gosh. Yes I think you just have to exert a veto here and tell your DH that you are not ok with them coming over. Normally I don't think it's right to tell your spouse that they can't have family to stay but here you have things like the piano possibly being irreparably damaged, that crosses a line in my opinion. And that should be avoidable, in the sense that if you, the homeowner, set a rule that food must be eaten at the table, then the parents should respect that and should ensure their child only eats food at the table. So the fact that you've tried to set this rule and the parents have let their child run around and destroy your things and smear food on the walls, is a real problem and frankly it's totally unacceptable on their part. And your dh getting mad at you because you can't live with your stuff being destroyed, rather than him being mad at his sister for letting her child run around and destroy your stuff, that says your dh is unreasonable. You are not the unreasonable one here.

Agree with those who say the development isn't typical for a four year old. The only children in our preschool who might behave like this are ND or have other issues going on. Four year olds usually quite like learning and following rules and visiting a family member would usually put them on good behaviour.

Even if there is a reason for the more extreme behaviour it doesn't mean you have to accept it in your home. Visit your family elsewhere until the child outgrows this stage.

Surely a "we don't behave like that here" is sufficient. If her parents won't discipline their child, do it.
If the parents ask why...tell them.

I wouldn’t stop her visiting just yet. Instead, every time she does something she shouldn’t, I would ask her parents to stop her.

So instead of saying “No niece, don’t pour your juice on the piano”, try confidently asking your BIL or SIL to stop her: “Hey BIL, niece looks like she’s going to pour her juice on the piano. Please don’t let her. Thanks.”

Do it for everything so that it’s clear that you expect them to manage her behaviour.

Yes I would agree that four year olds like to learn rules. I know it seems counterintuitive but they want skills and they want to have good relationships with adults. I have lots of thoughts about what you describe but to the extent you can, you may be able to protect your things by framing your interactions with her as teaching her some skills. At age 4, she doesn't have the use of reason, so this is really her parents' fault for not supervising. In other words, be warm with the 4 year old, and cold with the parents when you see them letting her run around unsupervised: Barbara, I would suggest you do not let Maeve climb on that wall, there are sharp rocks on the other side of it and she could get a serious head injury if she falls off. Bob, please keep Maeve at the table when she is eating or drinking as she poured juice into the piano last time. If she does so again I will be sending you the cleaning bill and just to let you know, it is several hundred pounds.

Regardless of whether there is SEN or not, the child's parents are clearly being completely ineffective in making sure OPs home and belongings are not damaged when they visit. In any case, it doesn't sound like this girl has SEN, just half arsed parenting. But if the girl did have SEN that doesn't mean the OP should expect her home to be trashed, the odd accident maybe, but the parents need to be proactive, not ignoring her and sat on their phone. One of our friends has a DS with autism and despite invitations to our home, we have always met up somewhere neutral by their choice as that way it is far less stressful for them not having to worry about DS damaging anything.

Unless DH can talk to them about it, I would probably be knocking the visits on the head. They could stay somewhere else and you all meet up for days out instead.

Have an honest conversation with parents your home your rules. As difficult as it may be to have this conversation you could start with open questions such as “is this excitable in other peoples homes?” “Do you want me to reignite a time out area for poor behaviour?”.

this doesn’t have to go outside of the 4 of you!

Maybe she does in which case it needs to be assessed and dealt with appropriately but it doesn't give her free rein to trash other peoples's homes. Maybe she has just never had any boundaries at home. One way or another her parents need to be made aware of this. I wouldn't invite them any more until they realise her behaviour is inappropriate.

Personally i'd tell her like it is , if that means losing her as a friend then so be it .
No way would I put up with any of that .

YANBU.

@AlastorMoodysMadEye The child sounds a bit like they have a developmental delay (?) if they are acting like this at four?
28 Months one could understand it.

I’d definitely not be wanting a child with those behaviours in my house.

No way would I tolerate that behaviour. I would not accept it from my own kids so certainly would not tolerate it from visitors. After the first time I would suggest meeting on neutral territory until the child has grown up again.

She just sounds bored. Is there anything fun in your house to keep her entertained? The TV.

It’s also good for a child’s development to learn some boundaries, how to behave out of their own home and the word ‘no.’

Even if the child were sen and you knew they were like this you would watch them like a hawk in someone else's house.

It really isn’t. We don’t do X, or we only do X in Y location is met with a defiant look and a doing it anyway. Often whilst laughing.

I like the idea from @Hillstreet and @aloris for making the parents take responsibility for stopping her. So far it has been me or DH telling her to leave things alone or what the rules are and her ignoring us. Asking her parents to parent her might make some difference.

DH is on board with not tolerating this anymore, it’s just that I’m worried about the terrible controlling DIL narrative coming out, though I really should be old enough to not care what they think.

I also don’t think I’m being judgmental. I said in my OP that I don’t think her behaviour is entirely her responsibility due to her age and I’m clearly fed up with the behaviour and not the child.

Ahh my son is this child 🫣, however as his parent I do my best to manage him and if he kicks off/doesn’t listen we leave. Not knowing your circumstance or relationship it’s difficult to say if you should refuse to have the child at your home. Is the parent there too, or are you expected to manage the behaviour alone?

My DS is nearly 5 now and still doesn’t listen regardless of consequences. Just to offer an insight that the behaviour isn’t necessarily unusual at that age. (I have two older children who behave beautifully and always have, so I smugly had a third!!).

A child like this needs supervision by its parent. Should not be dumped on you and it just expected you'll deal with it every time.
My 5yo has ASD and she can be a handful at times... I always warn people of this and ask them if they are OK with it if they invite her over to play etc.. never woukd I just dump her on someone and expect them to cope. I understand totally if people decide its too much for them to have her round or I go round myself and supervise her closely. And it doesnt even sound like she is anywhere near as bad as this child. Really irresponsible parenting to just pretend its fine and constantly expect you to deal with it.

If this little girl has some SN going on, then it is even more important for her parents to pay her more attention, particularly in someone else's house.

But I agree with those who don't think it's "typical" 4 year old behaviour.