To not want this child in my home?

[AlastorMoodysMadEye]

I feel like I should caveat this with me not actually holding this child responsible. She’s 4 so her behaviour isn’t necessarily something she can self regulate but it’s awful behaviour that her parents also seem to be unable/unwilling to address.

But I’ve had it. Every time she’s here things get broken - from cups to walls and furniture - because she repeatedly plays with or climbs on things she’s asked not to. You ask her not to eat anywhere but the table and she’ll grab her food and run off to the bathroom/bedroom/couch and smear whatever she has wherever she is. You ask her to leave things alone and she won’t until you wrestle them off her and then she will throw a massive tantrum, which can be ear-splitting and often involves her kicking out and more things being damaged or people being hurt.

Obviously the answer is don’t have her back until she behaves but if I set a rule like that it’ll cause the most almighty family row, with generations getting involved, and I’m not sure, knowing that it would be coming, whether I’m actually being unreasonable as how do we expect 4yo children to behave? And I’ll be told stuff is less important than faaaaaaamily.

So AIBU to actually put my home and belongings (and shins) ahead of family unity? Or do I have to suck it up and have my house trashed whenever she comes.

It all just sounds like the parents are just being fucking useless tbh. I think the majority of NT four year olds would behave like this if they had never been set any boundaries.

What is their own house like, do you ever visit them? Just wondering if they let her trash everything in their own house?

I'm pretty sure this child isn't in op's home often enough to have their development hindered if they're expected not to swing from the light fittings!

She sounds feral.

Sounds like BIL is useless and SIL isn’t coping with single parenting a spirited 4 year old.

Have some house rules before they come again. Also, can your hubby speak with his parents as surely they’ve noticed the tornado that is their DGD?

Children need to learn how to behave in other people’s homes, at the age of four she should know better. Her parents are neglectful and the child will face a difficult time at school.

Given the car ride is long enough that they need to stay overnight when they visit, that probably explains why she's bored when she arrives. She's been strapped into a carseat for hours most likely. I wouldn't get a toy piano. For one thing, from experience, I think most kids know that the real piano is better. They want to play with it because it's real. A toy piano will just be a piece of plastic she pushes over your floors and ruins the flooring. And you'd have to store it. Instead I would invest in a good quality piano lock and make sure the piano is locked when she arrives. It will cost some money but it's probably worth it.

I agree with the person who said that when they arrive, the top priority should be to make sure she is given an opportunity to run around and get her wiggles out in a safe environment that will not ruin your stuff. The parents wanting to chat with you and relax takes second place. So going outside, going to a park, anything like that.

Oh come on, put your foot down and ban her from your home. Who cares what ripples it causes - that's not your problem.

She’s four though OP. Some kids can’t do those things at that age.

some can, but some really can’t.

recent research shows shouting at young children to make them behave either shames them (which can have long lasting damage) or doesn’t work.

if the second, then either you’re setting up an early dynamic of defiance or you keep going until they’re scared. And parenting via fear also has bad long term outcomes (see all Those adults with low self esteem / anxiety).

however. Her parents should be managing her behaviour. Visits were hard work when ours were that age, due to the responsibility of making sure they didn’t damage stuff etc.

we’d manage meals - ours couldn’t sit at the table for more than 10 mins, so we’d feed them quickly or keep a hold of the food so they could come back for more and didn’t wander about and make a mess.

as guests we let our young kids watch so we could have some peace during a meal. But that held their attention. Doesn’t for all young children.

our younger one is five and has only just moved passed ‘running dinners’ (eat/ play / eat).

so YES YABU in your expectations
but YES the parents are being unreasonable to come and visit if they are not going to manage their child properly.

hell is other people’s children!

what does your DH say?

if I were you I’d think up ideas for alternative ways to meet up.

-go and visit them
-meet up half way. But not for a ‘nice lunch’ that’s what adults do. Something like a national trust place with a good playground and a picnic.

next time they ask to stay (so they ask? Why? Visiting with young children is hard work!) say no, and suggest some of the above instead.

if they push back, explain:

look, she damaged XYZ last time, and I’m upset. We’d prefer to meet somewhere else until she’s a bit older

You probably should speak to her parents and explain to them that unless they moderate her behaviour you don’t at this time feel you want your children exposed to it. Which is entirely reasonable. Explain this to the rest of the family. The poor child either has some sort of underlying issue or is just completely undisciplined. Neither of which is her fault. 😔

Well I regularly travelled 3 hours plus with my children to grandparents houses at that age and getting their wiggles out (WTF?) categorically did not involve destroying anyone's property. How low is the bar, like seriously? Neither I nor the grandparents would have tolerated that for a minute.

Try shouting. If you can make the parents more worried about your reaction than hers maybe you'll get a result.

it’s playing with things she’s asked to leave alone, it’s refusal to follow basic rules like only eating at the table, it’s not being able to respect any boundaries
You really think these things are beyond some 4/5 year old's, @Cloudburstings ?? You sound unduly proud of what looks to me like sub optimal parenting.

Voice to parents she's made a mess and broken things before... say you're happy to have her but they pay for breakages and cleaning

if we meet midway we’d have to do lunch somewhere and she’ll get up and bolt in restaurants or cafes with no care or awareness of other people.

But that’s not your problem - when it’s in your house, it is! I’d insist on only seeing them away from your house. If it’s too difficult to say so, just make excuses/avoid. “Decorators are coming/my Mum’s visiting/road closures” whatever. Just do not invite them to your home again.

It's true, that is an odd thing to think you have to police yourself, op.
Her parents will be right there, it's not your problem.

God the "yes space" comment!!

I actually really hate that approach, i think its crucial children learn to accept being restricted/told they can't do x/y/z in certain situations, rather than us finding constant ways to flex the world around them to cater for their every want. Its how they learn obedience, which society needs for us all to live productively together.

SEN or not, she needs parenting and clear boundaries. Especially if she has SENs.

Get out and burn her energy off early in the visit. DS used to find visiting a certain relative hard (absolutely not destructive, but they clashed and he found her set up tedious and dull) and I used to end up heading down to the area early and taking the DCs to the park to burn energy off after the drive which helped them cope better with tedious, noisy pub lunches and lots of talking (with children being expected to be seen and not heard, and meanwhile not entertain themselves on screens).

Get locks on rooms you don't want her in.
Constantly enforce your boundaries and redirect her back to her parents as much as you can. Don't let them have an easy ride.

Either she will learn and behave more appropriately, or the parents will take the hint or strop off because it's too much like hard work.
You shouldn't have to go to those kinds of lengths to protect your property and parent extended family, but my experience of youth work and boundary-less non parents is they're often pretty quick at solving the problem by stropping off when they're shown up by reinforcement of reasonable boundaries. They like an easy life, and don't like it when they think they're being shown up.

It'll be interesting to hear the parents' reaction to her starting school... Again, she'll either learn to meet the school's boundaries or there'll be regular rants about the evil teachers quenching their precious darling's spirit.

I would avoid any further visits to your house… make up any excuse but don’t have them in your house. She was in your bed? Totally unacceptable behaviour…
You say she bolts if you meet up halfway and have lunch… well then her parents will have to act. She is their responsibility. What do the rest of DH family think about her behaviour?

There are some children who just seem to break things and some never do.
We would put away anything that was even remotely special and only have out toys that we were not worried about or were robust for certain children.

I'd also have a ban on them going in certain rooms.
So no kids upstairs or in the front room. They could play in the lounge where everyone was or the garden.
Our kids actual stopped asking to have the damage doers on play dates as they found them too much eventually. The last straw for one friend was when they tipped out several beautifully sorted boxes of Lego - my kids were so upset as the sorting had taken us all ages, deciding how to sort, buying the segmented boxes etc, it was a thing they were proud to show off. It devastated them that all that hard work was gone in seconds and the kid didn't even play with the Lego for long. Parents who have kids that break everything seem to be more permissive and have less 'control'.

It's frustrating when it's family and you do have to put up with a certain amount for family peace.

*She’s four though OP. Some kids can’t do those things at that age. some can, but some really can’t."

Excluding the small minority who are going to turn out to have additional needs, they can, honestly. When they have boundaries enforced and meaningful consequences, ones they actually care about, imposed, from an early age. Well before age 2.

If my kids took food out of the kitchen, from age about 18m, they were returned to the kitchen and told no, every time. By about 2.5 it was drummed into them, no leaving the kitchen with food. No shouting or shaming, just firm, calm, over and over. Same with climbing on furniture, touching things theyve been asked not to touch. Youngest was less naturally compliant than eldest and found it all much harder but nonetheless, was fine.

If parents are taking them somewhere where there's not much to do, its on them to bring a colouring book/simple game/stickers etc to amuse them. The answer is not to let them carelessly wreck somone else's home

id have dh do the final bits like making the drinks and have easy stuff ready prepared like lasagna for eating etc - stuff to put in the oven.

That way you can take the child by the hand and go and and find something to play, or play with and keep the child entertained. Maybe not your job but better than being on egg shells waiting for something to happen.

Go to The Works and find something age suitable for the child to play with, make a treasure hunt through the garden for the child to look for objects outside to collect. Go to the park and feed the ducks and go on the swings.

After a long car journey im not surprised she is like a whirlwind - better to head straight out for a walk and look at stuff or into the garden as this will surely help after being cooped up in a car for an hour or two.

The child obviously takes note of you when you say no, as she stopped thumping on the piano when you asked her to stop. Use this to your advantage, tell her stop but do lots of nice play things.

unfortunately it sound like parents want to just look at their phones and thats not gongs o work with a lively 4 year old who wants to play

instead of hosting in your home, go visit them in their city or suggest a completely separate destination where you can meet up for a weekend of child friendly activities. If you enjoy a weekend away together, I suggest separate hotel rooms or cottages.

Future family get togethers do not involve being in your home. Simples.

Are you my SIL?

My niece is the same. Massively indulged by parents who are either on phones or smiling benignly, saying that they don't like to say 'no' to her while she trashes the place. They tried to let her start painting on the white linen table cloth on Christmas morning, couldn't see why thus was a problem. My sofa will never recover from her inserting all her ice lollies between the cushions, because they kept letting her help herself to another and another without checking what she was doing with them. Etc.

Love them and her to bits, but she is hard work. And I do say no to her, she tantrums and then they give in. Her teen years are going to be hard!

@HarrietJet actually my children could follow instructions like ‘don’t touch that, or ‘don’t go in there’ pretty well by four. Though we’d still supervise them closely and redirect as needed.

sitting at the table was more mixed.

ive met other children that can’t though. We had a four year old girl over to play when our DD was that age and she was a nightmare as the OP describes. She wasn’t invited back.

now aged 10 (same class at school) she’s still strong willed and can only follow instructions short term. Very confident and out going though.

kids vary in their strengths and weaknesses 🤷🏻‍♀️